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Valve drops VR support for macOS

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Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#31

Post by bangonkeyboard »

reom_tobit wrote: post #28
ashtonkem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will say that the newer MBPs have decent video cards. They’re not great, but they’re ok-ish.

It’s not necessarily about the hardware, but (for me at least) more to do with the OpenGL hacks I have to do to get reasonable cross platform support rolling. Took about 2 days to take a win project to linux, that same win project took about 3 weeks to port to mac. That was the first time I’d done it of course (to either mac or linux), but I just found the mac documentation to be severely lacking. Also all macs are n…

> Also all macs are now stuck on OpenGL 4.1 forever, it may not matter much now, but it will show in future.

Not forever: OpenGL is deprecated on macOS and will be removed in the future. I will be very surprised if OpenGL survives the ARM transition.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#32

Post by est31 »

Danieru wrote: post #6

Mac is a horrible platform to support for video game developers. Speaking from experience the issues are: 1. No cross platform builds allowed. We can compile to Windows, Linux, Android, Switch, PS4, Xbox One all from one windows build machine. 2. Shifting sand of non-backwards compatibility. Notice how of the above list everyone except Linux and Android have solid back compat stories. Video games are in development f…

> 1. No cross platform builds allowed.

This is SO annoying. I can cross compile to Windows from GNU/Linux quite easily. In fact with Wine I can even get MSVC running. But Apple, even though they employ many of the Clang/LLVM developers, believes that you must use their OS to target any Apple product.

Your only reprieve outside of buying their extremely expensive hardware is using CI services like Travis or Github actions.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#33

Post by willis936 »

gumby wrote: post #22
ashtonkem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will say that the newer MBPs have decent video cards. They’re not great, but they’re ok-ish.

Unfortunately due to the mobile architecture you can’t sync frames. This is true on the windows side too but there you can get a “gamer” laptop which has a desktop cpu and video architecture. We could only demo castar for example On a gamer laptop or a desktop. Even a cheap desktop worked great. I’m a Mac user and develop on the Mac so you might think I’d bend over backwards to make an excuse, but...not possible in t…

>can’t sync frames

What does this mean?

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#34

Post by reom_tobit »

bangonkeyboard wrote: post #31
reom_tobit wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not necessarily about the hardware, but (for me at least) more to do with the OpenGL hacks I have to do to get reasonable cross platform support rolling. Took about 2 days to take a win project to linux, that same win project took about 3 weeks to port to mac. That was the first time I’d done it of course (to either mac or linux), but I just found the mac documentation to be severely lacking. Also all macs are n…

> Also all macs are now stuck on OpenGL 4.1 forever, it may not matter much now, but it will show in future. Not forever: OpenGL is deprecated on macOS and will be removed in the future. I will be very surprised if OpenGL survives the ARM transition.

Imprecise language on my part. I meant that’s the final version that they’re ever going to support (if you can call the current state “support”), but yeah you’re 100% correct.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#35

Post by ShakataGaNai »

sysbin wrote: post #12
Danieru wrote: post #6

Mac is a horrible platform to support for video game developers. Speaking from experience the issues are: 1. No cross platform builds allowed. We can compile to Windows, Linux, Android, Switch, PS4, Xbox One all from one windows build machine. 2. Shifting sand of non-backwards compatibility. Notice how of the above list everyone except Linux and Android have solid back compat stories. Video games are in development f…

How is using something like unreal engine not able to compile to all operating systems. I'm not a game developer so pardon my ignorance but can you not just run macOS on a VM from Windows to compile? Hardware isn't horrible from Apple. It's just more expensive for macOS and the complete build quality that has been slipping over the years. All Apple users know we're paying more for the hardware than machines preinstal…

You cannot run macOS virtualized on anything but Apple hardware. It's against the Apple Terms of Service. Is it technically possible to do? Yes. However most companies will not do so because that's ground for getting sued, or having your developer licenses revoked.

For the same reason as macOS games must be build on Apple machines, iPhone and iPad applications must also be build on Apple hardware. There is an entire market of companies that rent out "server farms" of MacMini's in datacenters for this exact reason. It massively raises the cost and complexity of a modern development/integration system to have "special snowflakes".

As it comes to hardware, the problem is you can't get something "reasonable". You can build a $500 Windows compatible PC that's not half bad. You can stick a low in Nvidia RTX card in that (for a few hundred more) and get some really reasonable gaming performance out of it. However to get an RTX level gaming performance out of a mac... you're out however much it cost to buy the new MacPro... so let's call that $10k. Most normal people are not going to pay that.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#36

Post by willis936 »

pcr910303 wrote: post #11
wtallis wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason is that Apple's pushing their own graphics API (Metal) rather than supporting the cross-platform Vulkan API. Apple also doesn't make any machines targeted for gaming use, and they haven't used NVidia graphics chips for quite a while and don't ship drivers for recent NVidia chips, so even Hackintosh users have trouble building a great Mac gaming system.

TBF, Apple’s Metal was developed before Bulkan while tackling the same problem, and for the NVidia chips, the reason on the bad relationship of NVidia/Apple is mostly on NVidia, right?

Does it really solve the same problem? Can I run metal API on my windows or linux machines?

Also, to answer your question: no. Nvidia is in the GPU selling business. They wouldn’t mind having their high priced GPUs in high priced laptops. Apple keeps control of what hardware they sell, which dictates what software gets developed. Why would Nvidia or Apple spend resources to make software for a computer that no one is selling? It’s Apple who refuses to buy rather than Nvidia being unwilling to sell.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#37

Post by imadethis »

ashtonkem wrote: post #30
Taek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but have you played beat saber? I'm dead serious though the experience you get in a good immersive VR rig is completely unrivaled. Well worth the hassle and overhead. This will get better as costs come down and developers continue to innovate.

Obviously I have not tried beat saber. If it’s that amazing, I wouldn’t be posting cynical takes on VR. I think one of the problems of VR is one of cost and credibility. Even if I knew you personally and trusted you, there is no way in hell I’m going to float thousands of dollars getting a new gaming PC, VR headset, and customizing my room for the full setup just because someone said it’s amazing. The risk/reward rat…

I'll say for sims, (both flight and racing) the immersion and ability to move your view hands-free make VR well worth it. At this point I can't imagine going back to regular monitors for DCS. I do agree that there is significant pain getting into them though, as there's no real <$100 option to get your feet wet. I was lucky enough to have a local friend who had already purchased a headset, allowing me to get a full demo.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#38

Post by bangonkeyboard »

ashtonkem wrote: post #30
Taek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but have you played beat saber? I'm dead serious though the experience you get in a good immersive VR rig is completely unrivaled. Well worth the hassle and overhead. This will get better as costs come down and developers continue to innovate.

Obviously I have not tried beat saber. If it’s that amazing, I wouldn’t be posting cynical takes on VR. I think one of the problems of VR is one of cost and credibility. Even if I knew you personally and trusted you, there is no way in hell I’m going to float thousands of dollars getting a new gaming PC, VR headset, and customizing my room for the full setup just because someone said it’s amazing. The risk/reward rat…

When the Oculus Rift and its development kits first released, early adopters would post invitations to interested people in their area to try them out. Many shopping malls and arcades now have VR demos or games on display.

There are options available to try high-end VR before you buy, and ~$200 low-end versions if you prefer going in blind.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#39

Post by snarfy »

est31 wrote: post #32
Danieru wrote: post #6

Mac is a horrible platform to support for video game developers. Speaking from experience the issues are: 1. No cross platform builds allowed. We can compile to Windows, Linux, Android, Switch, PS4, Xbox One all from one windows build machine. 2. Shifting sand of non-backwards compatibility. Notice how of the above list everyone except Linux and Android have solid back compat stories. Video games are in development f…

> 1. No cross platform builds allowed. This is SO annoying. I can cross compile to Windows from GNU/Linux quite easily. In fact with Wine I can even get MSVC running. But Apple, even though they employ many of the Clang/LLVM developers, believes that you must use their OS to target any Apple product. Your only reprieve outside of buying their extremely expensive hardware is using CI services like Travis or Github act…

What? I can use online CI services to compile for MacOS? TIL.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#40

Post by smnrchrds »

Taek wrote: post #29
ashtonkem wrote: post #19

I remain skeptical of the long term viability of VR; I’m old enough to remember when 3D TVs and monitors were going to change the face of both TV and video games, and yet here we are. I priced out VR recently and I was unimpressed with the price per value available, with most systems adding $500-$1,000 to my gaming system’s cost, and some requiring that I modify my room to work properly. And that’s not even accountin…

Yeah but have you played beat saber? I'm dead serious though the experience you get in a good immersive VR rig is completely unrivaled. Well worth the hassle and overhead. This will get better as costs come down and developers continue to innovate.

I haven't played Beat Saber, but I remember Avatar. As beautiful as it was, it remained unique. All new films for the past decade have been released as 3D, but I cannot think of a single one other than Avatar that I would prefer watching in 3D over 2D. Is there reason to believe Beat Saber would not become VR's Avatar?
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