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Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#801

Post by imtringued »

bananabreakfast wrote: post #449
gwd wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? If it's a bad bet for the bank , it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That's the point -- right now we're essentially suckering millions of naive young adults into a life of wage slavery by giving them a "bet" which they are completely unequipped to evaluate; and many of t…

"Society" doesn't figure anything out. If "Society" wanted people to go to college then it would it give it to everybody for free. People are incentivized to act one way or the other. Less-wealthy people cannot afford college tuition, and the government cannot mandate that banks give away money to extremely risky but ambitious people. This same problem exists with extending loans in general to risky, low-income indiv…

They shouldn't get the loan then. Certain types of loans just shouldn't exist. If you know that certain people have a high chance to default then giving them a loan is irresponsible.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#802

Post by imtringued »

Spivak wrote: post #664
zhynn wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not underestimate the impact bankruptcy plays in someone's life. You would be getting a bankruptcy on your record in the prime of your life (mid-twenties), making it very very difficult to borrow for the next 10 years. You end up starting building credit in your mid to late thirties, and maybe you are able to participate in the modern economy in your forties. It sucks. I lived it.

However, in a world in which it is common for college students to declare bankruptcy immediately after graduating, financial institutions might take advantage of that information and realize that their creditworthiness is much higher than the bankruptcy would predict. Kind of like how the stock price many companies go up after they cut retirement benefits. This of course will be to the spiral and collapse of the coll…

How high is the creditworthyness of someone who is on a repayment plan to service another debt? It is practically zero. Declaring bankruptcy just limits the duration of the mortgage to 7 years. You still have to pay as much back as you can unless you are literally an unemployed hobo on the street for 7 years.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#803

Post by wolco »

chrisco255 wrote: post #763
JackFr wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The college system is very expensive, it's heavily subsidized by the state even in the U.S. If it is not teaching people valuable skills that they will be using in their profession, then it is not serving it's purpose. Education allows one to lead a richer life regardless of ones circumstance. Consider the janitor who took 8 years to get a bachelors degree in classics (after learning English). He admits that now wi…

Since we're on anecdotes, my father was a firefighter who never got a degree at all. Never went into debt. Worked his way up to become Battalion Chief. It's cool the janitor had a passion for classics and wanted to learn about literature. As long as he did that with no expectation that there would be a writing job for him on the other end of that, all's fair in my mind. The guy worked for Columbia, so he probably got…

Higher education was never designed for getting a job. Rich families sent kids to be educated. Lately it is a degree factory. But it doesn't mean your father should have been barred if that is how he choose to spend it.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#804

Post by prepend »

N1H1L wrote: post #273
0d9eooo wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can figure out the reasons for university price increases, good luck. It's a combination of a variety of things. One is that increased demand for employers for "certification" of ability pushes demand for degrees among students. Every recession there's articles showing that those with a college degree fare better than those without. We can argue about why that is, but that's what the average 17 yo sees, along…

Also have you seen how much reporting requirements have increased for faculty? How much paperwork is needed for grants? Just today there was a story I read about a Georgia Tech professor who is under federal investigation for misrepresentation on her continuing NSF grant. And the money involved was $40,000. And one of her defenses is that Georgia Tech provided very little secretarial services to her. Which may very w…

I don’t think secretarial services would help with misrepresentation.

And how much more help would she need?

Georgia Tech has really high admin costs with fees per semester above $1000. That’s just the explicit fees and doesn’t include the admin costs that are included in tuition.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#805

Post by mrep »

jedberg wrote: post #287
staticautomatic wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this attitude disturbing. The only things stopping real change in America are people who don't want it to happen and people who have been tricked into believing it can't.

I want real change, I just don't believe this is the change that makes sense. Changing the way colleges are paid for would make sense. Capping tuition would make sense. Making you pay a portion of your income back to the college for the rest of your life (or maybe just 20 years) would make sense. But allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy would do more harm than good without other systemic changes.

> Making you pay a portion of your income back to the college for the rest of your life (or maybe just 20 years) would make sense.

The REPAYE Plan already allows you to pay 10 percent of your discretionary income for 20 years and then the rest of your loans are forgiven [0].

[0]: https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/repayment/plans/income-d...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#806

Post by bluGill »

fzeroracer wrote: post #715
bluGill wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are getting a degree that doesn't have good job prospects then you should pay for it out of pocket, only the rich should try for it (rich can mean middle class with a good job taking a second degree for fun). If you take a loan that means you expect the value of the degree is worth more than the loan amount over time. If you can't find such a job paying enough to make it worth it, then you should declare bankr…

What you're essentially asking for is to create two separate classes of people. Your idea would result in us regressing back to the idea of 'philosopher kings' and I would hope I shouldn't need to argue why that's a bad idea. People should be able to get an education no matter their social standing. It shouldn't be tied to this idea of job prospects because commodification of education is a sham.

If educacation doesn't have some sort of monetary value what is the point? Entertainment is a valid answer, but it should be in different bucket.

I did not not in any way say that some people shouldn't be able to get an education. I said if the education isn't valuable they shouldn't get one, but there are many valuable education paths to take.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#807

Post by bluGill »

staticautomatic wrote: post #572
bluGill wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are getting a degree that doesn't have good job prospects then you should pay for it out of pocket, only the rich should try for it (rich can mean middle class with a good job taking a second degree for fun). If you take a loan that means you expect the value of the degree is worth more than the loan amount over time. If you can't find such a job paying enough to make it worth it, then you should declare bankr…

I got a liberal arts degree that by all accounts should have left me with terrible job prospects but I ended up going straight into a lucrative career path with just my BA. I know music majors who went into consulting and English majors who went to work for Goldman Sachs. Yes, they were exceptional people. None of us were rich.

Would you have gotten that great job without the education? If no, then it was valuable and you should pay for it. (we can perhaps question if it was worth the cost, but that is a different analysis and much more complex). I'm referring to those who get an education that doesn't help them get a better job.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#808

Post by TomMasz »

I'm currently adjunct faculty in a software engineering program. I have no expectation of future work beyond the end of this semester as my school has announced massive cutbacks across the board. I'm "lucky" in that I don't rely on this for income but it still sucks. The only good thing is, as far as I know, none of my senior students have lost a job offer as a result of the pandemic.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#809

Post by notechback »

gwd wrote: post #113
nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

Or just fix the incredibly high fees. In many European countries (not the UK) public education is incredibly affordable, in some like Germany and Denmark even free. It's a choice to make fees so high, it's not really necessary for the product. What do US universities spend their money on? Admin, sport stadiums and famous professors that then barely teach because what makes them famous is their research.

You'd go cheaper traveling to Europe, studying for three years at a German or Danish university, learning the language as a bonus, and come back afterwards with no debt. Some even have English courses.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#810

Post by notechback »

jedberg wrote: post #179
gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

Why even have this as a private thing. In other countries this works fine as a public loan offer by the state (which also helps to keep fees reasonable).
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