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Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#741
There's a whole long discussion to be had on the purpose of education, and it goes back a long ways

TL;DR: skills vs. reasoning.

For oligarchs, especially of public education, it is a skills-manufacturing pipeline for producing an efficient but docile wage-slave workforce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

For themselves, they reserve critical thinking, un-bowdlerized. Yes, an eponym.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bowdler

As Brother Mouzone said in _The Wire_: "You know what the most dangerous thing in America is, right? N-----r with a _library card_."

https://invidio.us/watch?v=bRCyZydgqdc

(Yes, bowdlerized.)

It's the liberal arts vs. the servile arts. "Liberal" because they are liberating, essential to freepersons. It's the undercurrent of virtually all education reform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artes_mechanicae

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_reform

Today, higher education is virtiually entirely a credentialing, branding, and gatekeeping mechanism. And like all gatekeepers, the higher-education-industrial complex collects rents.

And this goes back a ways. Hardly the first, but: "On the role of Universities and Primary Education as Social Indoctrination: John Stuart Mill via Hans Jensen", from the 1860s:

https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/6x7u6a/on_the_...

Mind, a college or university experience can be a hugely transformational thing, most especially if the student transgresses the curriculum. In the mid-1980s I shared a campus with some incredibly capable students (several have appeared in HN stories), granted with many who weren't. There were on-campus events, issues, and politics. There were faculty, emeriti, and visiting lecturers who were notable in their fields, including more than a few recognisable names. At least some of whom were patient enough to talk to a clueless undergrad for an hour or so. The arts & lecture series gave access to principle minds and creators. I discovered the on-campus library with a collection in the millions of volumes, part of a multi-campus system numbering in the tens of millions, indexed (though not directly accessible then) via an at-the-time groundbreaking computerised catalogue system -- a preview of DuckDuckGo-like search engines of today. And through the campus computing centre, free use of a shared Unix system, also with multi-campus connectivity, and access not only to such stunning tools as csh, vi, sed, awk, and troff, but email, ftp, and tin.

All of this (and more) has shaped who I am, how I think, and what I value today.

None of this appears in my (mediocre) grades, transcrpts, or degrees. It was a level of access (gatekeepers, remember) largely otherwise impossible at the time. Today's Internet ... makes a significant part of this experience far more generally possible, though there is still a tremendous element of being in the same space with someone, or a group, or access to physical infrastructure, equipment, and environment that online experience can still not match.

And the system in which I'd participated evolved out of a long train of policy decisions, backlashes, many quite political: Thatcher-Reagan conservativism, 1970s eco-awareness and peace movements, 1960s Sputnik-fuelled space-race and nuclear techno-FOMO and -optimism, civil rights, and university expansion, RAND-UCLA Arpanet, 1950s anticommunism, 1940s Vannevar Bush endless frontier government-funded research, early 20th century industrial and energy monopoly funded endowments, late-19th century majors systems, mid-19th century engineering polytechnical schools and land-grant/agricultural policies, the Prussian university model, Enlightenment, the Encyclopaedists, the classical university system, liberal & mechanical arts,the Renaissance and emergence of the university, scholasticism, mediaeval and earlier philosp[hical traditions .... Very little of which I had any knowledge, understanding, or appreciation of at the time.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#742
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will force "the system" to come up with some other way to pay for tuition. What do you think about Income Share Agreements? https://www.thesimpledollar.com/loans/student/income-share-a...

Out of the fire and into the frying pan.. What makes you think that "profit motive" or "regulatory capture" will be kinder and more gentle with this approach? For hundreds and thousands of years Indian farmers had a version of "income sharing". You should research how it went. And please don't respond with "Sure they fucked up but WE will build a better system this time around"

Do you have a source for this history of income sharing? Just trying to learn more.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#743
post #113
post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system.

I think the shameful thing is how college is such a waste of time for most folks. I think the money would be better spent traveling and learning on your own for a small fraction of the cost.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"AV" being audio/visual, anti-virus, else?

Sorry, autonomous vehicles. We use the term so much internally and in industry-adjacent conversations that I have a blind spot around the fact that it's not an obvious acronym at all.

In Japan it means "Adult Video", so yeah I puzzled too.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#745
post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would having someone who knows the law and drives a taxi make it a waste of resources? Taxi drivers should be uneducated in your view. Why? How does that help society? Many lawyers need to drive taxis to get by. Being a lawyer doesn't mean instant riches unless you land at a high profile firm directly out of school. Studying law isn't a finite resource either.

> Many lawyers need to drive taxis to get by. Being a lawyer doesn't mean instant riches unless you land at a high profile firm directly out of school. Wait, what? Since when?

I’ve heard of the actor waiting tables, I’ve never heard of the taxi-driving lawyer.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#746
post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

our bartender Javon had a masters in biology That's de-risking, de-skilling and outsourcing. Back then, in the last century, the US and Europe had a functioning chemical industry. Unfortunately, information technology took off, and investment banking discovered that returns are better with Facebook than in Pharma, consequently that's where the jobs are now. Also, mergers & acquisitions took off in the same time. Why…

> investment banking discovered that returns are better with Facebook than in Pharma, consequently that's where the jobs are now.

Considering how many drugs are basically miracles of statistics rather than science: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/7950612/Five-out-of-...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#747
post #440
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? If it's a bad bet for the bank , it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That's the point -- right now we're essentially suckering millions of naive young adults into a life of wage slavery by giving them a "bet" which they are completely unequipped to evaluate; and many of t…

> If it's a bad bet for the bank, it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That doesn't follow: you could graduate, get your degree, and declare bankruptcy. You're fine, your loan is gone, and the bank regrets their investment.

[deleted]

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#748
post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would having someone who knows the law and drives a taxi make it a waste of resources? Taxi drivers should be uneducated in your view. Why? How does that help society? Many lawyers need to drive taxis to get by. Being a lawyer doesn't mean instant riches unless you land at a high profile firm directly out of school. Studying law isn't a finite resource either.

"I never let schooling get in the way of my education." The problem with your view is you assume the only way to get educated is via academia. There is a lot of education when you become a mechanic, an electrician, a factory worker, a firefighter, etc. That is not academic. You learn on the job. There are also many certification courses for these fields that run outside of traditional college system. I believe in fre…

> The college system is very expensive, it's heavily subsidized by the state even in the U.S. If it is not teaching people valuable skills that they will be using in their profession, then it is not serving it's purpose.

Education allows one to lead a richer life regardless of ones circumstance. Consider the janitor who took 8 years to get a bachelors degree in classics (after learning English). He admits that now with a degree he’ll probably try to become a janitorial supervisor.

But two things stand out, first there is no shame in a job as a janitor, and second to him the education was an end in itself, not a means to an end.

https://nypost.com/2012/05/13/what-class-columbia-university...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#749
post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

[deleted]

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#750
post #440
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? If it's a bad bet for the bank , it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That's the point -- right now we're essentially suckering millions of naive young adults into a life of wage slavery by giving them a "bet" which they are completely unequipped to evaluate; and many of t…

> If it's a bad bet for the bank, it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That doesn't follow: you could graduate, get your degree, and declare bankruptcy. You're fine, your loan is gone, and the bank regrets their investment.

> That doesn't follow: you could graduate, get your degree, and declare bankruptcy. You're fine, your loan is gone, and the bank regrets their investment.

In my early days in Motorsports (late HS?) we had a anesthesiologist in our group, he was the wise elder who had accrued enough money and flexibility in his practice to play around with the young punks and 'show us how its done.'

One day after a tech day before a track event we working and wrenching in his garage and someone asked him how he got into the trade; turns out he was drafted in Vietnam and chose a medic role out of professional interest but also to ensure not being sent into the suicidal combat zones and come back home alive.

He said that it was incredibly typical to do what you just said in the 60-80s and declare bankruptcy like that when you got your MD, mind you this is at a time when it cost a fraction of what it costs today.

But you could also have your entire medical career subsidized by the State and expedited if you're sent on tour faster than anything offered in the civilian World and choose whatever medical school because of the GI bill and do your residency anywhere you wanted due to your status as a veteran.

And then stiff the Bank for any loans you may have accrued and it was accepted and common practice and save while your credit score was fixed.

He was one of the few boomers who openly spoke about how his generation wasn't anymore responsible then the 'entitled' millennial trope and tried to lecture us about it as that was becoming wide-spread by that time. He actually gave advice about the optics of this route that were being skewed to the detriment of his Industry and profession.

Now seeing the shortage of medical workers during COVID are being perilous overworked all over the World turns out he was, reluctantly, right.

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