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Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#681

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #652
gwd wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? If it's a bad bet for the bank , it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That's the point -- right now we're essentially suckering millions of naive young adults into a life of wage slavery by giving them a "bet" which they are completely unequipped to evaluate; and many of t…

"If it's a bad bet for the bank, it must be far worse of a bet for young adults." Not necessarily. Even if it's a good bet for the student, what's to stop them from declaring bankruptcy just after graduation, and before they start their lucrative career? They would then get all the upside, whilst the bank gets zero payments.

Trashing your credit score, with unfortunate consequences for your ability to buy a car, rent accommodation, apply for a mortgage, and avoid predatory debt collectors, sounds like a superbly practical debt management plan.

And if you have a job with decent money, obviously it wouldn't count as outright fraud at all.

But even that is missing the point. These loans are an economic time bomb. They rely entirely on a functioning economy with adequate middle class job opportunities.

If those disappear - if, for example, an unexpected black swan event happens to leaves a smoking crater where GDP growth used to be - banks lose a giant pile of money anyway.

The debt will be sold at cents to the dollar to collection agencies who will hound the victims, and anyone else who gets in the way by sharing an address, or having any form of financial connection - for the rest of their natural lives.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#682

Post by defterGoose »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #653
knzhou wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physics PhD student here. Yeah, we're all playing the lottery for the dream of a life studying the universe. It's the exact analogue of how serious student athletes throw away their whole undergrad education for a shot at a pro career, usually to end up injured and useless a couple years later.

I don't know about that. If you fall short of your aspirations at the PhD or postgrad level, there's always quantitative finance or any number of other lucrative careers where your background will at least get you in the door for an interview. For the athlete, it's literally all or nothing.

Except, for so many of us who have studied hard science, the idea of a career in quantitative finance is the exact analog of the purebred racehorse who breaks his leg on the track and gets taken out back for an acute brain-scrambling.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#683

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

WalterBright wrote: post #654
lordnacho wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kind of knowledge you need to evaluate this is something that is normally taught in college. What high school teaches decision making under uncertainty, along with economic history and statistics? I mean sure we could try to teach kids this stuff, and I certainly aim to tech my kids, but it's not what's been done in the past at secondary school.

It's really too bad that high schools do not teach basic accounting, compound interest, and how the free market system works. Things people need to know to function in our society.

There is no "free market system" here. There's an organised debt slavery racket run for the benefit of parasitic rent-seekers who operate with federal sanction.

College loans have taken point on this for the aspiring middle classes. In a very literal sense this system is the exact opposite of genuine freedom and opportunity.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#684

Post by lonelappde »

WalterBright wrote: post #651
psadri wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is missing one important part. The prevalence of student loans has caused the cost of education to skyrocket, pushing it even further out of reach. So now even people who previously afforded higher education need to get loans. It’s a self-fulfilling system.

Ironically, every governmental attempt to make college more affordable has caused tuition to rise.

Except the original attempt: public schools.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#685

Post by wutbrodo »

defterGoose wrote: post #682
CamperBob2 wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that. If you fall short of your aspirations at the PhD or postgrad level, there's always quantitative finance or any number of other lucrative careers where your background will at least get you in the door for an interview. For the athlete, it's literally all or nothing.

Except, for so many of us who have studied hard science, the idea of a career in quantitative finance is the exact analog of the purebred racehorse who breaks his leg on the track and gets taken out back for an acute brain-scrambling.

As the example originating this subthread shows, quantitative finance isn't even close to the only option for a lucrative career available to those educated in the hard sciences.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#686

Post by abnry »

jchrisa wrote: post #404
abnry wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It brings up the old joke about being a philosophy major: "Two things to do with a Phd in Philosophy: 1. Teach. 2. Pose the question: ‘But do you know why you want fries with that?’" College is an investment that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. When you invest that much money, you should expect a ROI. If you can't even put roof over your head or eat with that investment, then it is really hard to say it was a…

As a Philosophy major who has succeeded in tech, I think tech would be better off with more humanities people involved. Writing code isn't the hard part, when you are solving big problems.

You certainly add a useful perspective, I am sure. However, by working in tech you aren't doing philosophy, you are doing tech.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#687

Post by heavyset_go »

gwd wrote: post #113
nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> There's a reason many ancient religions forbid loaning money at interest entirely

There's also the jubilee[1] concept when it comes to debt, property rights and slavery. It's interesting that even in ancient times, both debt and property were recognized as forms of power and control similar to slavery.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#688

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

eldavido wrote: post #602
freeone3000 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College at $60k a semester while an adjunct earns $28k a year and somehow this doesn't result in a 1:1 student:teacher ratio means someone's skimming off a ton of money.

Skimming or cross-subsidizing? Part of the problem with universities IMO is the accounting for revenue expenses isn't at all straightforward. Athletics generate a ton more money than they cost, most people seem fine with that. Research generates no revenue but costs a ton, for some hard-to-quantify but (hopefully?) real benefit to society at large. Tuition is nominally for teaching, which is a big cost center for a u…

I have no idea why anyone would say "research generates no revenues" when most universities have systems to spin out viable research and profit from it. Universities quite literally profit financially from patented research funded by taxpayers. The government gets no direct return on this, and the usual argument is that it increases economic activity and raises the tax take - which may be true, but it's still a uniquely privileged position.

But most universities are more about property speculation and bequest farming than they are about education or R&D.

The system is entirely corporatised and often predatory. Professors are only as valuable as the grant income they generate, adjuncts are gig economy labour, students are a barely-tolerated annoyance, and property speculation and "administration" are considered the central mission.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#689

Post by madhadron »

eldavido wrote: post #602
freeone3000 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College at $60k a semester while an adjunct earns $28k a year and somehow this doesn't result in a 1:1 student:teacher ratio means someone's skimming off a ton of money.

Skimming or cross-subsidizing? Part of the problem with universities IMO is the accounting for revenue expenses isn't at all straightforward. Athletics generate a ton more money than they cost, most people seem fine with that. Research generates no revenue but costs a ton, for some hard-to-quantify but (hopefully?) real benefit to society at large. Tuition is nominally for teaching, which is a big cost center for a u…

For the university, research in the sciences brings in way more money than it costs, and subsidizes a lot of other things. Most professors in physics, chemistry, etc. largely pay their own salaries out of grants.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#690

Post by surfpel »

graeme wrote: post #178
brownbat wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, I thought so too. This always made me so angry. Last time I posted a rant about that here someone urged me to read the REPAYE Act, and it completely changed my mind. Under REPAYE, students get income based repayment, even down to $0 payments if you're anywhere near poverty level. After a certain number of years o…

This still inflates the cost of university for everyone. Basically the govt is taxing society to funnel the money into student loans which are then ploughed into college facilities and administration staff. It’s a massive misallocation of societal resources. And I suspect many people earning a mediocre wage are still stuck repaying, and would have been happier had loans not existed and college have been forced not to…

An obvious solution would be a comprehensive tuition cap for public institutions. Financial aid makes college more affordable, but allows colleges to raise tuition. Getting rid of financial aid could lower tuition cost due to market pressure but bring back the problem of affordability that it intends to solve.

I would like someone to point out why a tuition cap would be a bad idea, since regulation often carries unintended consequences.

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