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Vitamin D Insufficiency is Prevalent in Severe Covid-19

medrxiv.org

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Re: Vitamin D Insufficiency is Prevalent in Severe Covid-19

#291

Post by dcow »

OpieCunningham wrote: post #287
dham wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike software developers, doctors, in my experience(friends and docs I have gone to), don't seem to have the same open mind about things in their field. At least the one's I know. It might seem foreign to us because a lot of our job is to keep an open mind and constantly question the status quo. Doctors tend to dismiss things immediately and unless you push you won't even get them try something that is harmless. I…

That is interesting. As a generality I’ve found software developers to be some of the least open minded people. Perhaps a small bit amongst themselves (though the endless disagreements indicate it’s a very small bit), but when interacting with anyone outside the industry regarding some aspect of the industry, open mindedness is essentially non-existent. Perhaps it is the same for doctors interacting with patients.

This is a general problem in any scenario where you have a high concentration of people with big egos...

Re: Vitamin D Insufficiency is Prevalent in Severe Covid-19

#292

Post by dcow »

adrianmonk wrote: post #151
londons_explore wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody makes any money if it turns out to be a good treatment, so nobody will fund the research

I don't know about that. From where I'm sitting, lots of companies stand to gain if Vitamin D turns out to make a big difference. For example: American Airlines, Hilton, and McDonald's.

Oddly for me, McDonalds is the one place that's still open 24h around where I live. But yes.

Re: Vitamin D Insufficiency is Prevalent in Severe Covid-19

#293

Post by OpieCunningham »

dcow wrote: post #291
OpieCunningham wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is interesting. As a generality I’ve found software developers to be some of the least open minded people. Perhaps a small bit amongst themselves (though the endless disagreements indicate it’s a very small bit), but when interacting with anyone outside the industry regarding some aspect of the industry, open mindedness is essentially non-existent. Perhaps it is the same for doctors interacting with patients.

This is a general problem in any scenario where you have a high concentration of people with big egos...

Definitely

Re: Vitamin D Insufficiency is Prevalent in Severe Covid-19

#294

Post by odysseus »

noway421 wrote: post #199
odysseus wrote: post #138

There is an app I've been using to track my Vitamin D for a few years now: http://dminder.ontometrics.com (Not affiliated with the app, just happy with it.) It tells you the sun angle, peak hour of the day, and maximum time you should be in that day's sun based on your skin type, to avoid getting burnt while still getting enough D. Be careful though - you might get a little OCD about Vitamin D tracking with this app.…

This app seems amazing! Can't figure it out, does it send me a push notification of when to sunbath?

Yes, if you want it to. Looking at my notifications screen in the app, it can notify about "D Window Events", and you can even specify the minimum angle of interest.

It can also notify upon solar noon, sunrise and sunset (not the same as a D window of opportunity), and give a daily supplement reminder. Each of these is individually configurable.

Re: Vitamin D Insufficiency is Prevalent in Severe Covid-19

#295

Post by waheoo »

dcow wrote: post #290
waheoo wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesnt this basically explain the real reason for why flu is worse in winter. Less sun exposure in general.

I always wondered this too. I didn't think it had anything to do with the temperature of the air... how does that make sense?

Previous thinking was that it was more time spent indoors woth central heating recirculating air and things like that but i never really bought into that idea. Doesnt really work for more temperate climates that still see lots of outdoors activity in winter, eg. Australia.

The one difference is during winter, your basically go to work in the dark and arrive home in the dark as well.

Re: Vitamin D Insufficiency is Prevalent in Severe Covid-19

#296

Post by zamfi »

Harvesterify wrote: post #270
zamfi wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "During active COVID-19 infection symptoms [...], please AVOID[...]" > Hence I've been avoiding adding Vitamin D Do you have active symptoms? The concern is about a studied connection between Vitamin D supplementation and an increase in concentration of the IL-1b inflammation marker (see, e.g., [1]), which has been implicated in cytokine storms. The other supplements mentioned have similar effects. This correlation…

Well, vitamin D actually reduces the cytokin storm, so I don't really get why his/her doctor advised against it in the first place... https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-inf...

Hmm, I consider that paper to be pretty weak evidence -- as elsewhere, it shows a hypothesized connection via some intermediaries: they show Vitamin D inhibits inflammatory cytokines, but then presume that this inhibition must therefore help avoid hypercytokinaemia (cytokine storms), despite hypercytokinaemia being an edge case/failure mode of the immune system that is not particularly well-understood.

The paper I shared in my previous post cites work showing that Vitamin D promotes other kinds of inflammatory cytokines.

So, yeah. Vitamin D might reduce the likelihood of a cytokine storm, and circumstantial evidence relying on mechanism-of-action suggests that it does -- but this hasn't been demonstrated conclusively.

What is known, however, and which this paper reiterates, is that if you're deficient in Vitamin D, you're more likely to suffer from respiratory tract infections. Take a supplement!

Re: Vitamin D Insufficiency is Prevalent in Severe Covid-19

#297

Post by Harvesterify »

zamfi wrote: post #296
Harvesterify wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, vitamin D actually reduces the cytokin storm, so I don't really get why his/her doctor advised against it in the first place... https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-inf...

Hmm, I consider that paper to be pretty weak evidence -- as elsewhere, it shows a hypothesized connection via some intermediaries: they show Vitamin D inhibits inflammatory cytokines, but then presume that this inhibition must therefore help avoid hypercytokinaemia (cytokine storms), despite hypercytokinaemia being an edge case/failure mode of the immune system that is not particularly well-understood. The paper I sh…

The paper you cited only deal with cell lines (i.e. in-vitro studies), whereas you can find good quality in-vivo RCT studies about both low grade inflammation and cytokines storm. Hell, you can event find meta-analysis for specific conditions and related inflammatory state (CHF, type 2 diabete, ...)

For example :

- Heart failure meta analysis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29348609 - Type 2 diabete meta analysis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29490085 - Type 2 diabete meta analysis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29945132

Hell, we even have preliminary human studies dealing with just that: clinical outcome for patients admitted in intensive care unit, with or without a single mega-dose of vitamin D: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4939707/

Re: Vitamin D Insufficiency is Prevalent in Severe Covid-19

#298

Post by EricE »

retsibsi wrote: post #209
tinus_hn wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to be sure is to randomly take either the real preparation or some placebo that looks, tastes, smells etc. exactly the same so you can’t tell the difference. The placebo effect does not require you to believe in the cure.

To be sure , yeah, but if you've tried a bunch of things with no success, and then one thing works despite your having no real optimism for it, that's pretty suggestive of a non-placebo effect.

And even if it is a placebo - if you improve, who cares?!?

I never get that for people who seem eager to dismiss a placebo effect as not having value because it isn’t “real” - whatever that means.

Re: Vitamin D Insufficiency is Prevalent in Severe Covid-19

#300

Post by thibauts »

EricE wrote: post #298
retsibsi wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be sure , yeah, but if you've tried a bunch of things with no success, and then one thing works despite your having no real optimism for it, that's pretty suggestive of a non-placebo effect.

And even if it is a placebo - if you improve, who cares?!? I never get that for people who seem eager to dismiss a placebo effect as not having value because it isn’t “real” - whatever that means.

You improving has no predictive power about somebody else improving. That’s the problem. Limited usefulness VS an effective drug.
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