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Rust/WinRT Public Preview

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#81

Post by forty »

derefr wrote: post #73
contextfree wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my view is that embrace/extend has really always been a general platform business thing and not specifically a Microsoft thing. it became infamously associated with Microsoft in '90s-00s because of the monopoly position they had. since Microsoft is still a platform business, it's reasonable to be wary of the negative potential of embrace/extend in connection with them, for the same reason it is in connection with Goo…

I don't see Microsoft doing much EEE on their modern non-cost-centre platform (Azure), though. Amazon is a much clearer example these days, with AWS having "embraced and extended" Postgres into Aurora, Redis into ElastiCache, and many other examples. (I don't know if AWS has ever gone all the way and "extinguished" any of the cores they've built upon, though?)

MemoryStore is GCP, AWS' redis is named Elasticache.

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#82

Post by blub »

acdha wrote: post #77
yarrel wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure let's do that. This century they have bought up LinkedIn, GitHub, npm, and a stake in Facebook. They have replaced Atom with a fauxpen source editor. They've pointed them all at their locked down me-too cloud platform. And don't forget to develop your code on their locked down me-too tablet. What has changed is that MSDN is no longer delivered on CDs. That's because "Open Source" is a much cheaper deliver mechan…

> This century they have bought up LinkedIn, GitHub, npm, and a stake in Facebook. They have replaced Atom with a fauxpen source editor. You left out the part where you explained why any of those acquisitions are a problem: LinkedIn is no worse than it was before, GitHub and npm are both popular services people choose to use without coercion, and whether or not you like it a lot of developers are switching to VSCode…

Concentration of power is (or at least I thought it was) obviously bad. This is why there's laws protecting against that but either they're not enforced or they weren't updated to the internet age.

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#83

Post by WorldMaker »

temac wrote: post #66
contextfree wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WinRT, as in the API/ABI shape, at this point really isn't tied to any aspect of the UWP app model (other than that existing UWP-related APIs tend to be newer and more likely to use it). Third-party WinRT component activation used to depend on app packaging but that dependency was removed last year: https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2019/04/30/enhanc... In general what used to be various facets of the "monol…

> on the other hand, only UWP CoreWindows can make use of UWP shell integration features like fullscreen and picture-in-picture What are the practical advantages of fullscreening / PIP'ing thanks to UWP as compared to what you can achieve without?

The Shell managed PIP is entirely unique to UWP. In Win32 you can fake it with an always-on-top window, but you don't get the PIP window management gestures out of the box and some other things. From what I recall, where this particularly matters is touch gestures and HoloLens and Windows MR support where Win32 always-on-top is very different from Shell-managed PIP in three dimensions. (Also, Xbox doesn't support Win32 always-on-top.)

I think fullscreening also has some gestures the Shell manages, but I'm not as familiar with them. Similar too that the Shell does very different things in 3D.

There's also the Dual Screen support in CoreWindow that Microsoft has been talking up for Windows "10X".

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#84

Post by pianoben »

pathartl wrote: post #38
blinkingled wrote: post #7

https://github.com/robmikh/minesweeper-rs - I just love how they brilliantly avoided mixing up C++/COM things into this. Tough one to pull when you're dealing with bindings for a foreign language. The code looks fairly standard Rust (except maybe for the winrt::import that looks like Go?). > If you are familiar with Rust, you will notice this looks far more like Rust than it looks like C++ or C#. Notice the snake_cas…

It seems like they're doing all they can to get developers on their platform. Not to establish Windows developers like they have in the past, but to have others see Windows as just another platform. We're reaching a revolution from moving from x86 to ARM and I think the more Microsoft positions themselves like this, the less likely they are to be left in some weird compatibility limbo. As weird as this sounds, I feel…

In fact, the _have_ transitioned to ARM, way back around the time of the first Surface tablet. Windows and Office have been running on ARM since at least, what, 2012?

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#86

Post by ape4 »

cs702 wrote: post #15

You have to hand it to Microsoft: It may be the only large software company that doesn't seem susceptible to not-invented-here syndrome. It's true that Microsoft historically has been an intensely competitive company, often trying to undermine competing technologies, e.g., with "embrace and extend" strategies. But whenever a competing technology -- whether a language, or a framework, or an application -- gains adopti…

F# is Microsoft's invented here version of Java

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#87

Post by contextfree »

derefr wrote: post #73
contextfree wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my view is that embrace/extend has really always been a general platform business thing and not specifically a Microsoft thing. it became infamously associated with Microsoft in '90s-00s because of the monopoly position they had. since Microsoft is still a platform business, it's reasonable to be wary of the negative potential of embrace/extend in connection with them, for the same reason it is in connection with Goo…

I don't see Microsoft doing much EEE on their modern non-cost-centre platform (Azure), though. Amazon is a much clearer example these days, with AWS having "embraced and extended" Postgres into Aurora, Redis into ElastiCache, and many other examples. (I don't know if AWS has ever gone all the way and "extinguished" any of the cores they've built upon, though?)

at its most benign embrace/extend can just mean that your product supports the standards people expect and need, and there's also some differentiating aspect in which it's better than the other options (otherwise why does it exist?)

It can be a bit fuzzy defining precisely where that benign sense stops and the negative sense where the "differentiation" brings harmful lockin begins. Then if you have a monopoly position the "extinguish" bit can come in. But actually AFAICT Microsoft rarely (never?) actually succeeded in extinguishing any of the open standards they were infamous for attacking - their successes happened earlier against proprietary competitors like Lotus 1/2/3 and Novell Netware

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#88

Post by munchbunny »

ape4 wrote: post #86
cs702 wrote: post #15

You have to hand it to Microsoft: It may be the only large software company that doesn't seem susceptible to not-invented-here syndrome. It's true that Microsoft historically has been an intensely competitive company, often trying to undermine competing technologies, e.g., with "embrace and extend" strategies. But whenever a competing technology -- whether a language, or a framework, or an application -- gains adopti…

F# is Microsoft's invented here version of Java

I thought C# was Microsoft's NIH version of Java?

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#89

Post by tambourine_man »

cs702 wrote: post #15

You have to hand it to Microsoft: It may be the only large software company that doesn't seem susceptible to not-invented-here syndrome. It's true that Microsoft historically has been an intensely competitive company, often trying to undermine competing technologies, e.g., with "embrace and extend" strategies. But whenever a competing technology -- whether a language, or a framework, or an application -- gains adopti…

It’s always easy to be an open source proponent when you are the underdog.

And Microsoft, as crazy as it sounds to me, kinda is when it comes to cool dev stuff.

We'll have to see if they have really changed or just waiting to regain ground and going back to the extinguish part.

But what I can confidently say is that, of all the BigCorps, Microsoft is the only one actively trying to make developer's life easier.

Apple is consumer first, so MacOS is getting harder and harder to hack on, for better and worse.

Chromebook was never a serious competitor. And Linux is Linux, hackable to a fault.

But Windows… which I have always despised, is, for the first time in my life, tantalizing… to some extent.

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#90

Post by loeg »

ape4 wrote: post #86
cs702 wrote: post #15

You have to hand it to Microsoft: It may be the only large software company that doesn't seem susceptible to not-invented-here syndrome. It's true that Microsoft historically has been an intensely competitive company, often trying to undermine competing technologies, e.g., with "embrace and extend" strategies. But whenever a competing technology -- whether a language, or a framework, or an application -- gains adopti…

F# is Microsoft's invented here version of Java

You mean C#? F# is an ML family language on the CLR.

> James Gosling, who created the Java programming language in 1994, and Bill Joy, a co-founder of Sun Microsystems, the originator of Java, called C# an "imitation" of Java; Gosling further said that "[C# is] sort of Java with reliability, productivity and security deleted."

(Wikipedia)

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