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Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#591

Post by eldavido »

horsemessiah wrote: post #130
gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

I appreciate this perspective. So many people have no sympathy towards young people, who have been told their whole life that college is the path success.

Maybe that belief isn't wrong, but outdated?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#592

Post by apta »

eldavido wrote: post #581
happythomist wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a reason many ancient religions forbid loaning money at interest entirely; and it's the same reason we have bankruptcy laws. The Catholic Church condemns usury as intrinsically evil because, in the words of Aquinas, usury is to "sell what does not exist". [1] Aquinas observed that some goods are consumed by their very use, such as food or drink. Allowing someone to use such a good is equivalent to transferr…

In my view, this is a situation where technology changed our understanding of morality. When Aquinas was alive, there was nothing remotely similar to modern banking. Money was lent at punitive rates of interest (20% or more/year), with very little regulation concerning what rights creditors had if debtors couldn't pay. As an example, look at mortgages today; in many states, these are non-recourse, meaning the law lim…

This doesn't change the fact that lending with interest is inherently evil and parasitic, even in modern times. It is completely prohibited in Islam, and Jews don't lend each other with interest.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#593

Post by vonmoltke »

YPCrumble wrote: post #426
slg wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. Why would anyone lend money to someone with zero credit history, zero income, zero collateral, zero prospects of repaying the loan for at least 4+ years, and has the ability to immediately declare bankruptcy as soon as it comes time to start paying you back? What would the free market int…

Lenders stopping lending would be fantastic! Without eager lenders with usurious terms on their loans like no bankruptcy colleges would have to make “tough decisions” like figuring out how to be less expensive.

90% of the money comes from the federal government, so how is that going to work?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#594

Post by [deleted] »

jedberg wrote: post #179
gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

[deleted]

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#595

Post by abnry »

lordnacho wrote: post #541
abnry wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you are saying, except that we shouldn't say students are unequipped to evaluate the "bet" merely for being young and inexperienced. If we wanted to, we could train students to be much better at evaluating such a bet.

The kind of knowledge you need to evaluate this is something that is normally taught in college. What high school teaches decision making under uncertainty, along with economic history and statistics? I mean sure we could try to teach kids this stuff, and I certainly aim to tech my kids, but it's not what's been done in the past at secondary school.

Isn't that then a gigantic failure of high school then? If there is one thing we need to prepare students for, isn't it how to start making career decisions?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#596

Post by labcomputer »

bsder wrote: post #527
jedberg wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

> Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be discharged at bankruptcy. So? That's the marketing evaluating what the loan is actually worth. Bankruptcy isn't a magic "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. Your credit is trashed at a point when you might want to get married, buy a house, start a family, etc.

> Bankruptcy isn't a magic "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.

Except that it is in this case. The order of operations is:

1. Take out student loan

2. Graduate

3. Get a job, spouse, mortgage, and new car

4. Declare bankruptcy to discharge student loans

5. Profit

The order of steps 3 and 4 are critical. Your car and house are collateral for their respective loans, so they don't go away when you declare bankruptcy. Since you have a house and new car, you typically don't need good credit for the 5-7 years it takes before people will start loaning you money at reasonable rates again.

This isn't some theoretical pattern. It's what people actually did. Especially doctors, because they could often qualify for nice mortgages while still in residency ("doctor loans").

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#597

Post by vonmoltke »

abnry wrote: post #374
gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

The government will give out a loan to students for basically any reason, as long as their family doesn't make too much money. Think about the insanity of that kind of investment practice. No "business plan", no estimates of ROI, no collateral, little to no grade submissions. It's a bad way to invest. If a student is going to get a loan, what I think the government and banks should do is require them to file a propos…

> The government will give out a loan to students for basically any reason, as long as their family doesn't make too much money.

The only bearing family income has is whether you get the lower subsidized rate or not. Anybody can get unsubsidized loans.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#598

Post by moftz »

bsder wrote: post #537
Diederich wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other replies are interesting and insightful, so I wanted to add a little anecdata here. > some massive college bills In the late 1980s I started a Computer Science program at Cal Poly Pomona https://www.cpp.edu/ If memory serves, my tuition for a quarterly full load was less than $300. That's not per credit, that was for as many classes as I wanted. Books added up to a bit less. Working at Jack in the Box and la…

In California, at least, it used to be that(still may be, but my data is a couple years old) you could get about 2 years of your prerequisites done at a community college and then use that to funnel into the Cal-State schools. That was a significantly cheaper option for most students. And the classes tended to be smaller and, often, much better quality.

My state does something like that. You do an associates at the state community college system in a field geared towards your planned university major and as long as you get good grades, you get guaranteed admission to a state 4 year school. It helps the student by reducing cost and helps the 4 year schools by reducing the number of incoming freshmen.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#599

Post by maximente »

gwd wrote: post #113
nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

no need for lobbying, apparently:

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/797330613/myth-busted-turns-o...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#600

Post by gabrielflorit »

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

I enjoyed your writing style. Thank you.
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