Live data from Hacker News

Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

wsj.com

581–590 of 848 posts

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#581
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> There's a reason many ancient religions forbid loaning money at interest entirely; and it's the same reason we have bankruptcy laws. The Catholic Church condemns usury as intrinsically evil because, in the words of Aquinas, usury is to "sell what does not exist". [1] Aquinas observed that some goods are consumed by their very use, such as food or drink. Allowing someone to use such a good is equivalent to transferr…

In my view, this is a situation where technology changed our understanding of morality.

When Aquinas was alive, there was nothing remotely similar to modern banking. Money was lent at punitive rates of interest (20% or more/year), with very little regulation concerning what rights creditors had if debtors couldn't pay. As an example, look at mortgages today; in many states, these are non-recourse, meaning the law limits the borrower's liability to the mortgaged property (the house), and nothing more. People aren't sold into slavery, there are no debtors prisons, and we have a sophisticated system of personal bankruptcy that lets people start over.

In short, if you can't pay a loan, you aren't getting your kneecaps broken or getting sold into slavery. In my view, that's a game-changer.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#582
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral?

Over 90% of loans are owned by and issued by the federal government. It's not banks Congress was protecting.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#583
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it's a bad bet for the bank, it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That doesn't follow: you could graduate, get your degree, and declare bankruptcy. You're fine, your loan is gone, and the bank regrets their investment.

Let's make that point clearer: Since the bank is absolved from making that bet, it is now the young adult making the same bet that no sane bank would take. A lot of people are now living with having lost that bet.

It still doesn’t follow that the bet is bad for the student if it is bad for the bank. As the student you have some degree of control over the result. If you have reason to think you can make it work it might be a good bet. The bank OTOH only sees that X percent of students fail to pay back.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#584
I worked at a private college called Expression right at the end of the first dot com bust.The founder wanted to turn the school into the "Julliard of the digital arts" - and keep the tuition as low as possible. For the first few years it was a really interesting and unique place. To make a long story short, the board of directors weeded the main founder out and moved the school through the accreditation hoops so that students could get massive loans. As a result, the school raised the tuition. The place exploded with students for x number of years. When Obama came to office new laws killed off the loans (and the school). Most of the original staff left and the whole thing was sold to a company named SAE. I always wondered what would have happened if they were never able to get accredited and were forced to stay a small trade school. The aftermath is documented in the eastbay express article below (2015). From reading current reviews, the place never recovered.

https://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/sound-arts-fading-out...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#585
post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of credit card debt is unsecured because the purchased goods are consumed, but that is dischargeable.

Which is why credit card interest rates are so high and why you can't get a credit card with $100,000+ limit as an 18 year old with zero income or credit history.

And also why credit card debt is not concerned a necessity for 'making it' in society.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#586
post #413
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

While I think things could be a lot better, I like how college loans work over here in The Netherlands. Regardless of whether they're a 'golden ticket' or not (times are changing?), the student loan is something one doesn't have to worry about too much. Not only is/was a big part of it considered a 'gift' (up to half when I was studying, depending on my parents' income), but the entirety of the loan left over is low-…

American here - The Netherlands is a pretty small country (population wise) but the more I learn about it, the more impressed I am. Low public debt, sophisticated commercial culture, great education system, very cosmopolitan, and sensible.

Good job, guys.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

We treat education as a public good. Employers don't have to pay for their employees' educations, and employees can take their skills around with them. Given that banks know their customers need employees they would get around to giving loans out to keep the supply of talent coming. There would just be far less waste if student loans were dischargeable.

> Given that banks know their customers need employees they would get around to giving loans out to keep the supply of talent coming.

Banks generally don't give loans, the federal government does.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

It's a sure thing for the bank. Most of the loans are guaranteed by the federal government. Student loans only changed to be non-dischargable in the 70s and 80s, driven by certain professions (especially medical) and costs associated with them.

> It's a sure thing for the bank. Most of the loans are guaranteed by the federal government.

Owned and issued, not guaranteed.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#589
post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

Actual boilermaker here. Can confirm: earn more than my university educated age group; no education debt; have home and mortgage that I don’t struggle to pay; still have plenty of work during the down turn. Have often thought about living on rice n lentils n going to university to get a degree, but this whole pandemic mess has made me realise: well and truly fuck that for a joke .

It's all a betting game. Go to trade school and get a decent job making good money but have little upwards mobility other than opening your own business. Or go to university and hope you pick a worthwhile major and get a great job out of school where you have a lot of upward mobility. University is risky but if you can pick something like electrical engineering and end up at a top firm, you are probably set for life. I've got friends with university degrees that have done very well for themselves and those that just couldn't find a job in that field so now they work in retail. Some of them did everything right but just couldn't find high-paying work (computer science), others choose majors that fit their passions but don't have any immediate real world use (english).

I think some people have huge expectations for what their degree will get them that just aren't reasonable. I picked a engineering major that would pay big but also fit my passion, got the job I wanted, and have constant work lined up for me for the next 5 years. I got very lucky at the university betting game. If I hadn't gotten into college or decided to drop out when I had to take an semester off due to grades, I probably would have decided to try trade school.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#590
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? If it's a bad bet for the bank , it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That's the point -- right now we're essentially suckering millions of naive young adults into a life of wage slavery by giving them a "bet" which they are completely unequipped to evaluate; and many of t…

"Society" doesn't figure anything out. If "Society" wanted people to go to college then it would it give it to everybody for free. People are incentivized to act one way or the other. Less-wealthy people cannot afford college tuition, and the government cannot mandate that banks give away money to extremely risky but ambitious people. This same problem exists with extending loans in general to risky, low-income indiv…

This argument is missing one important part. The prevalence of student loans has caused the cost of education to skyrocket, pushing it even further out of reach. So now even people who previously afforded higher education need to get loans. It’s a self-fulfilling system.
Post reply on HN