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Rust/WinRT Public Preview

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#51

Post by yarrel »

acdha wrote: post #43
nemothekid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in their blood - its the 'Embrace' in EEE.

You know that’s from 3 decades and 2 CEOs ago, right? They’re a large company so there’s sure to be plenty to dislike but I don’t think it’s contributing much without some analysis of their actions in this century.

Sure let's do that. This century they have bought up LinkedIn, GitHub, npm, and a stake in Facebook. They have replaced Atom with a fauxpen source editor. They've pointed them all at their locked down me-too cloud platform. And don't forget to develop your code on their locked down me-too tablet.

What has changed is that MSDN is no longer delivered on CDs.

That's because "Open Source" is a much cheaper deliver mechanism if you control the platforms that make its freedoms meaningless.

Plus ça change...

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#52

Post by tonyedgecombe »

hota_mazi wrote: post #20
xrd wrote: post #6

I stopped reading at "The Windows Runtime is based on Component Object Model (COM) APIs..." Is that a bad choice on my part? I see COM and think of OLE, CORBA and I remember that I'm old and going to die pretty soon (within the next 40-50 years almost assuredly). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_Object_Model

COM is a fantastic invention and implementation. Granted, it was pretty painful in C and somewhat in C++, but all the other languages (VB and C# mostly, but plenty of others) really unlock the power of COM. Nothing like that remotely exists on Linux or macOS.

Nothing like that remotely exists on Linux or macOS.

https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Co...

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#53

Post by fortran77 »

29athrowaway wrote: post #44
acdha wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that’s from 3 decades and 2 CEOs ago, right? They’re a large company so there’s sure to be plenty to dislike but I don’t think it’s contributing much without some analysis of their actions in this century.

Let me introduce you to Steve Ballmer, the CEO before the current one, Satya Nadella: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_... He was CEO of Microsoft until 2014, that is, 6 years ago. Microsoft changed strategies because they tried everything they possible could to counter open source and Linux and lost. Now they are forced to play nice. Being forced to be nice is not the same as being nice ou…

They _lost_?

They have a 1.36 trillion USD Market cap (today). That's more than Apple's 1.29 trillion USD Market cap. It's hilarious how people on hacker news live in this bubble where Microsoft has faded away into irrelevance.

And they're also very good. I'm running Windows 10 right now on a dual-monitor, dual NVidia GPU, dual Xeon system and everything "just works."

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#54

Post by contextfree »

acdha wrote: post #43
nemothekid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in their blood - its the 'Embrace' in EEE.

You know that’s from 3 decades and 2 CEOs ago, right? They’re a large company so there’s sure to be plenty to dislike but I don’t think it’s contributing much without some analysis of their actions in this century.

my view is that embrace/extend has really always been a general platform business thing and not specifically a Microsoft thing. it became infamously associated with Microsoft in '90s-00s because of the monopoly position they had.

since Microsoft is still a platform business, it's reasonable to be wary of the negative potential of embrace/extend in connection with them, for the same reason it is in connection with Google and others.

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#55

Post by m463 »

skylanh wrote: post #49
29athrowaway wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft R Open is embrace/extend: - Incompatible with R. - Added their own packages version of every package. - Added their own package repository (MRAN), replacing CRAN. It's open source, and supports Linux, but if they found ways to optimize R perhaps it would be a better idea to just contribute that to the upstream project. Downvote all you want, but if you are rational, reply here and explain how I am wrong. No…

> Added their own packages version of every package. > Added their own package repository (MRAN), replacing CRAN. How is any of this different than the many incompatible Linux packaging solutions? How would you address insecurity and trust relations if you weren't a first-class contributor of CRAN? (consider the recent Python package exploit; although amateur, it's still an indication of such issues; I'm sure I remem…

> I am very familiar with corporate culture, security, and liability awareness

I thought the same thing many years ago. I was speaking with a friend (many years ago) who used to work for microsoft.

I said, "so they broke something and didn't support this, they're just developers and how do they know all the issues?" Basically, I was saying the coders were human, and sometimes getting something out is hard.

My friend said, "No, don't be naive. they had meetings. They sat around and said, "how can we own this?""

It might be interesting to revisit the (ancient) halloween documents:

https://catb.org/esr/halloween/halloween1.html

This also works in a benign fashion. Emergent behavior. People/roups and their interests bubble up the self-serving outcomes without being a conspiracy.

We have 4 features to support in this release. feature 1 is p0 it is basic functionality. feature 2 is p0 because 3 customers are asking for it. feature 3 is p0 because our team needs it to work with our other product. feature 4 is compatibility and we'll get to that as p1.

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#56

Post by drej »

cs702 wrote: post #15

You have to hand it to Microsoft: It may be the only large software company that doesn't seem susceptible to not-invented-here syndrome. It's true that Microsoft historically has been an intensely competitive company, often trying to undermine competing technologies, e.g., with "embrace and extend" strategies. But whenever a competing technology -- whether a language, or a framework, or an application -- gains adopti…

As much as I appreciate what Microsoft is doing here, your NIH praise is not entirely well targeted - look at this research project from Microsoft, which aims to build a slightly different Rust. https://github.com/microsoft/verona

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#59

Post by m463 »

acdha wrote: post #43
nemothekid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in their blood - its the 'Embrace' in EEE.

You know that’s from 3 decades and 2 CEOs ago, right? They’re a large company so there’s sure to be plenty to dislike but I don’t think it’s contributing much without some analysis of their actions in this century.

I wrote this below, but I'll mention it here

this stuff also happens in a benign fashion. Emergent behavior. People/groups and their interests bubble up the self-serving outcomes without being a conspiracy.

We have 4 features to support in this release. feature 1 is p0 it is basic functionality. feature 2 is p0 because 3 customers are asking for it. feature 3 is p0 because our team needs it to work with our other product. feature 4 is compatibility and we'll get to that as p1.

That's why products get telemetry and linkedin integration, but not compatibility with other software.

Re: Rust/WinRT Public Preview

#60

Post by munchbunny »

cs702 wrote: post #15

You have to hand it to Microsoft: It may be the only large software company that doesn't seem susceptible to not-invented-here syndrome. It's true that Microsoft historically has been an intensely competitive company, often trying to undermine competing technologies, e.g., with "embrace and extend" strategies. But whenever a competing technology -- whether a language, or a framework, or an application -- gains adopti…

From firsthand experience... Microsoft has quite a bit of NIH syndrome. Still does. They've just gotten better about it in recent years.
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