Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#341

Post by non-entity » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

ycombi3 wrote: post #94

say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #15

The culture of higher education isn't what it used to be. The advancement of knowledge is now secondary to economic growth in a university. Students begin as customers and turn into products by graduation. Universities used to be gatekeepers to better economic opportunities but those opportunities have disappeared. This is a relatively recent phenomenon in that Baby Boomers don't have the student loan obligations tha…

I'm sorry, but how could someone not have agreed with your statement? Online learning is a major threat to college for many of those reasons.

Online learning isn't a very big threat to colleges because colleges hold a sort of "social monopoly" on credentialling for majority of fields. No one will care about you coursera certificates they want a bachelors degree.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#342

Post by zwieback » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

vzidex wrote: post #51

geogra4 wrote: post #20

This is where the continental european model of the university is so much better than the anglo-american one. Universities should be about coursework and research, that's it. Dorms, dining halls, gyms, social clubs, sports etc. are not part of the university's mission

I disagree with you, however one aspect of the continental European model that I admire is the close integration between post-secondary education and industry. One of my cousins - who studied and now lives in Germany - did his Masters and PhD on the topic of work he was doing while working at , where he still works today. On the other hand, from my understanding such close integration between advanced degrees and ind…

I did graduate work at Fraunhofer in Germany, which straddles academia and industry. It's a model that could be employed more in the US, I think. I work at hp in the US now and we fund a lot of very small projects, effectively paying for some graduate students we like, but nothing at a large scale.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#343

Post by non-entity » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

downrightmike wrote: post #142

renewiltord wrote: post #65

Universities have to do all this proxying for a good education because they are unable to demonstrate the primary value: making you valuable to society. If they did, they could simply publish "Median income distribution for graduating students by degree achieved". They currently sell a common lie: that there is a roundedness or completeness to education. This is common wisdom and false.

The only degree that doesn't force a "well rounded" education is aerospace engineering. They start on their major course work right away. How many of those guys are out of work? "Well rounded course work" is just a money sink and wastes two years. Most of the major course work that matter you don't get to until junior and senior years. All you really need are those last two. First two are a waste.

Out of curiosity does the also mean Aerospace engineering degrees are cheaper, or are those 2 years replacwd by even more major work?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#344

Post by bosie » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:50 PM UTC

teh_infallible wrote: post #264

0xffff2 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that bad? Humanities departments are already shrinking without any changes because there's just no demand. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me that if you are determined to get a degree in philosophy, which has virtually no job prospects outside of teaching the next generation of philosophy students, you have to go do that at one of a handful of schools that carve out a niche for themselves with a philosop…

As someone who majored in English, I assert that the emphasis on STEM and shift away from the humanities is causing serious problems in our society. Specifically, having a population lacking in critical reading skills makes everyone more susceptible to propaganda, and less able to critique and assess flawed arguments in writing. If you want to know why, for example, our political “debates” are shallow circuses of mis…

I am not following your argument, is your first and second sentence connected?

why is a mathematican less likely to be able to critique and assess a flawed argument compared to an English major? why is an English major less likely to fall for propaganda compared to a computer science major?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#345

Post by eternauta3k » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #326

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

College, and the push to send everyone to it, makes much more sense when you view College as both an economic proposition, and a part of social class. The economic aspect has been well covered here, but the social class has not. Social classes are a set of shared values, habits, and beliefs that help cluster people together into a sense of shared social membership. It is completely distinct from economic class, with…

Reminds me of this other reference [1] to college being finishing school for the upper classes

[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/30/staying-classy/

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#346

Post by bradlys » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

maps wrote: post #223

jedberg wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

> But barring shifting to a European model of college funding, I don't see the US allowing dischargeable loans, nor do I think they should, because the reality of it is that colleges won't reduce their rates nor increase their scholarships, they would just be completely out of reach of poor and middle class students. The reality is that the they should be out of reach to poor or middle class students TODAY. They are…

> The reality is that the they should be out of reach to poor or middle class students TODAY.

That varies so much by student and to bar a whole class of people out of these things is not going to improve their outcomes. While some students are not served with better employment opportunities by going to college and earning a degree - there are many others who are.

Outlawing things to a group of people isn't going to serve them better. It will mean that the entire middle class will be unable to educate into jobs. Educating them about the effort college requires to be successful once you leave would be better.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#347

Post by traverseda » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

teh_infallible wrote: post #264

0xffff2 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that bad? Humanities departments are already shrinking without any changes because there's just no demand. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me that if you are determined to get a degree in philosophy, which has virtually no job prospects outside of teaching the next generation of philosophy students, you have to go do that at one of a handful of schools that carve out a niche for themselves with a philosop…

As someone who majored in English, I assert that the emphasis on STEM and shift away from the humanities is causing serious problems in our society. Specifically, having a population lacking in critical reading skills makes everyone more susceptible to propaganda, and less able to critique and assess flawed arguments in writing. If you want to know why, for example, our political “debates” are shallow circuses of mis…

Are universities in the US being used as an expensive stand-in for the failing k-12 education system? At least the basics of that kind of critical reading is something that the english classes in high school should teach.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#348

Post by jerf » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

teh_infallible wrote: post #264

0xffff2 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that bad? Humanities departments are already shrinking without any changes because there's just no demand. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me that if you are determined to get a degree in philosophy, which has virtually no job prospects outside of teaching the next generation of philosophy students, you have to go do that at one of a handful of schools that carve out a niche for themselves with a philosop…

As someone who majored in English, I assert that the emphasis on STEM and shift away from the humanities is causing serious problems in our society. Specifically, having a population lacking in critical reading skills makes everyone more susceptible to propaganda, and less able to critique and assess flawed arguments in writing. If you want to know why, for example, our political “debates” are shallow circuses of mis…

I think one of the major reasons you see this is that if you're going to go to college and come out with debt that takes you 20 years to repay, crippling you financially while you do [1], any reasonably smart person is going to ensure that they come out with skills that will justify that. If you want people to feel like they have the resources to spend on humanities, it needs to be cheap enough to justify it.

And the truth is, there's no effing reason for a humanities course to put you into that kind of debt. Cheap (often free!) books, a room to meet in, and some small groups for slightly-focused discussion among the students shouldn't be costing on the order of a thousand-dollars per credit hour (per student!) over the course of your compounding-interest loan. It's a terrible value for the money; if it wasn't for the credential nobody would be doing it because if you just want the knowledge/wisdom there are far cheaper ways to get it.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#349

Post by gwd » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:53 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #336

gwd wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? If it's a bad bet for the bank , it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That's the point -- right now we're essentially suckering millions of naive young adults into a life of wage slavery by giving them a "bet" which they are completely unequipped to evaluate; and many of t…

To be clear, I don't think college should be paid for with loans. I agree with you that we shouldn't be enslaving people. But I also don't think allowing these loans to be discharged in bankruptcy will solve anything (and will arguably make things worse) without systemic changes in the way college is paid for.

It will force "the system" to come up with some other way to pay for tuition.

What do you think about Income Share Agreements?

https://www.thesimpledollar.com/loans/student/income-share-a...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#350

Post by PascLeRasc » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:53 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #123

Retric wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the number of people graduating with a collage degree significantly outstrips the demand for collage degrees. Otherwise you would not see people with collage degrees working retail etc.

For some degrees . I don't see many CS degrees working retail. I don't see many EE degrees doing so.

Nearly every EE I graduated with, including me, had to give up on our dream of being a hardware engineer because nearly zero hardware companies will hire an EE grad from a mid-level school. They either refuse to hire new grads or only recruit at CMU/Purdue job fairs.

Then you take a software job that's available but not interesting, and you get pidgeonholed into that field. It's not retail but it doesn't seem great for EEs who didn't go to a top-10 school. I'd be very interested to hear any other EE grad's perspective though.