Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#221

Post by jackcosgrove » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #179

gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

We treat education as a public good. Employers don't have to pay for their employees' educations, and employees can take their skills around with them.

Given that banks know their customers need employees they would get around to giving loans out to keep the supply of talent coming.

There would just be far less waste if student loans were dischargeable.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#222

Post by jedberg » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #215

jedberg wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

> Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be discharged at bankruptcy. There were student loans before 1976, when they became non-dischargeable.

Yeah but college could be paid for with a minimum wage summer job.

That change in 1976 was actually the cause of the steep rise in tuition. Can't really put the genie back in the bottle now.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#223

Post by maps » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #179

gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

> But barring shifting to a European model of college funding, I don't see the US allowing dischargeable loans, nor do I think they should, because the reality of it is that colleges won't reduce their rates nor increase their scholarships, they would just be completely out of reach of poor and middle class students.

The reality is that the they should be out of reach to poor or middle class students TODAY. They are not serving those people and are actively making their lives worse by saddling them with outrageous debt and no prospect of meaningful employment.

If the US changed bankruptcy it would force the colleges to change as well. Lenders are not going to be sending children into the workforce with zero chance to recoup that loan, and they are not going to want to bloat the college stay to ridiculous proportions.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#224

Post by Justsignedup » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

The fairly recent law that you cannot bankruptcy out of a college load caused all this.

- Lenders are willing to lend to anyone knowing they will HAVE to pay.

- Colleges over-inflated costs, way beyond inflation

- It balanced out to this shit.

In the past, colleges had to be careful, and so did lenders, because lots of people just didn't go to college due to cost. So they had to sell their worth.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#225

Post by lcall » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

Two accredited online ones that have interestingly sustainable models, and possible interaction with others, I think:

BYU Pathway Worldwide and associated programs. It requires a Church affiliation but not necessarily membership (I think). I think tuition is much lower, bachelors programs (like IT, business, others) are available, programs excellent, and is also suitable for those who need to first become qualified for entering a university (edit: i.e., learning English which is used in curriculum, and other basic skill), then provides that university. More info is in Wikipedia and I have gathered a bit of info including linking to a news article that explains it well I think, here: http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854578440.html .

And: https://www.wgu.edu/ (also mentioned in wikipedia): state aid available from multiple states it seems (per wkp).

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#226

Post by 0xffff2 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #213

decompiled_dev wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The school admitting the student should co-sign the loan. If the school is confident in the value of their program they should assume the risk.

A funny idea, but also a great way to make sure that schools only offer majors with a high average post-grad salary.

Is that bad? Humanities departments are already shrinking without any changes because there's just no demand. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me that if you are determined to get a degree in philosophy, which has virtually no job prospects outside of teaching the next generation of philosophy students, you have to go do that at one of a handful of schools that carve out a niche for themselves with a philosophy department.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#227

Post by N1H1L » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #187

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

I work in AV development, and the number of refugees from the hard sciences is astonishing. I guess I don't blame them, but it's weird to have a physics PhD report to you and be able to use only a fraction of the skills she spent a decade and hundreds of thousands of dollars gaining. This isn't quite a complaint: adopting math and physics PhDs (first as a mentor and now as a TLM) that are seemingly unproductive has b…

PhDs though are never self-funded, so almost entirely the loan is from undergrad.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#228

Post by EvanAnderson » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #194

EvanAnderson wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've volunteered at a summer youth leadership camp held at a local state university since 1998. In the last 10 years the host university has undertaken massive construction of more "luxury appointed" dorms, recreational complexes, a huge basketball arena, and upscale dining halls. The justification was that it was necessary to do these things to compete with other colleges. I can't say that I've followed the cost of…

Students will actually pay for those things though and they are willing to pay a premium. My alma mater is concerned about having to run online classes next semester as they usually pay for many of the costs with the residence money...

I won't dispute that students will pay. I think it is predatory, though, on the part of the colleges.

I'd argue students, by and large, don't have the maturity to make such consequential financial decisions (taking on loans representing multiple years of their future gross income that can't be discharged in bankruptcy). The average young person just hasn't had the duration of life experience to think on a 10+ year horizon. (Arguably a shortcoming of humanity in general.)

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#229

Post by Macha » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #210

Swizec wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a lifehack: Attend college in Europe then move to USA for that high paying job. Works really well. Cheap to free education, better skills because you’re not just living the college life and professors have little incentive to make it easy. It’s great. Hell you don’t even have to fully graduate to get most of the benefit.

Aren't European colleges the same price as American colleges if you're not European?

Depends where you go. I know we had some Chinese students in my college, they paid €10000 a year, compared to the Irish students who paid €3000 a year.

As far as I've heard, US colleges are on the order of $10000+ per semester.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#230

Post by blululu » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

a9h74j wrote: post #170

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, especially not football. At my college the football team is essentially a separate corporation. The college gets nothing from the arrangement. In fact they have to rent parking from the football folk. Fat deal were made to coaches over the years, until its all pork-barrel dealing and nothing left for the school. The students can't even go to games, the ticket prices are a semester's tuition.

Pre-1990 I read this quote from a college president: "College administration boils down to sex for the students, football for the alumni, and parking for the faculty."

The great Clark Kerr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Kerr