Live data from Hacker News

Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

wsj.com

71–80 of 848 posts

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#71
post #20

This is where the continental european model of the university is so much better than the anglo-american one. Universities should be about coursework and research, that's it. Dorms, dining halls, gyms, social clubs, sports etc. are not part of the university's mission

I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life. Allocate some buildings to the student body, get them to organise themselves and throw a bit of a cash at them. I think that's a good balance. I studied at a university with quite a focus on "college life" and it was nice to feel part of something but we didn't need to organise our social lives.

> I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life.

If I understand the American system, there is pressure from parents as well. The students might not want the college to be so involved in their student life, but many parents would be unwilling to allow their children to attend an institution that is not highly focused on keeping them safe, to the point of treating adults as children. Rules requiring you to live on campus for the first 1–2 years, college-organized sober social activities, mental-health personnel on university staff, etc. is all meant to say “See, parents, your kid is safe with us.”

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#72

Universities have to do all this proxying for a good education because they are unable to demonstrate the primary value: making you valuable to society. If they did, they could simply publish "Median income distribution for graduating students by degree achieved". They currently sell a common lie: that there is a roundedness or completeness to education. This is common wisdom and false.

They would need the value before to do that which isn't exactly easy to gather and prove meaningfully.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#73
I feel like you can learn quite a bit now with just online material.

YouTube and the algorithm have really forced content creators to improve the quality of the content.

It's going to be tougher for schools to charge 30-50K a year when there are credible alternatives.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#75

Once the role of professional college administrator became a thing, then they took over. They're paid more than the faculty now. And they run it like a body shop. To pay for their hyperinflated salaries and padded staff. I wish I were being pessimistic about this.

This seems relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#76
post #20

This is where the continental european model of the university is so much better than the anglo-american one. Universities should be about coursework and research, that's it. Dorms, dining halls, gyms, social clubs, sports etc. are not part of the university's mission

I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life. Allocate some buildings to the student body, get them to organise themselves and throw a bit of a cash at them. I think that's a good balance. I studied at a university with quite a focus on "college life" and it was nice to feel part of something but we didn't need to organise our social lives.

I think it's often the parents who are buying into these things. Meal plans and dining halls are so popular because parents think their kids can't possibly cook for themselves or walk 10 minutes to eat out (at least that's my perception in a college city with lots of options to eat out, most of them cheaper & better than meal plan).

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#77
post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

What is happening with this make for movie story ^ So much here ^ :D

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#78
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the loans. I have a funny feeling if loans were capped at say, 10k/year, colleges might all the sudden charge 11k/year to attend instead of 30k...

One of the oddities in the college process is how public universities followed the price increases of their private counterparts. Why weren't state governments able to dictate effective cost controls to keep costs down for residents? Note that I'm aware of in-state tuition. The main campus of my state university charges 30k/year instate, and 40k/year out of state. Neither number is appropriate in a state with a media…

So, to be clear, price controls never work. Prices are determined (mostly and usually) by supply and demand. More demand -> higher price. More supply -> lower price.

The price of an education (regardless of cost structures, public funding, or whatever) is going to dominated by demand, since supply is relatively fixed. It takes years or decades to increase the supply of qualified instruction following typical university models.

In this case Federal dollars guarantee a massive surplus of demand, while Federal accreditation limits supply (rightly or wrongly).

"Public" schools are paid by students, just like private, as a fee-for-service product. For most educations at most universities, this service is largely indistinguishable. Some of the University income comes from tax offsets, but the product they provide is the same service and on the same market as private universities - fee-based educational services.

The price is therefor entirely determined by the amount of supply (relatively fixed) and the amount of demand for fee-based education. Demand has risen dramatically since WW2 due to a bevvy of Federal programs designed to underwrite and promote post-secondary education.

No amount of legal wrangling or tax-offsetting will defeat that. In fact, by increasing tax-offsets for public universities, the apparent price of the service supplied by public universities drops (relative to the market price), which is a signal to buyers that they should buy MORE of that service. This signal would naturally increase demand until the price of a public education on the market matches the price of the same education at private institutions.

The actual oddity is not that public education pricing keeps rising to private institutional pricing, but that it is not already at the same price.

Prices drive expense-side efficiency. An operation (such as a University) will not be mechanically driven to keep costs significantly lower than income - most are non-profit. There is no reason to "increase margin". Most Universities are already teaching at capacity. Since the price is set by the market, there is no reason to keep prices significantly below the market rate. Instead, the costs associated with an education simply rise to meet whatever revenue can be generated from a fixed pool of buyers. These buyers have virtually no spending limit, since their purchasing is de facto underwritten by enormous Federal programs. The result year-over-year dramatic price increases.

For extra credit, this is largely the same process that drives healthcare pricing in the US. A relatively fixed supply of a specialized service and a price-insensitive buyer pool largely underwritten by massive Federal programs.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#79
Good! These aren't hard choices - this is the type of prudent spending that happens when you're not guaranteed infinite sums of money from the federal government. Scale back on the insanely bloated administrative staff, lavish facilities, sports stadiums, etc.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#80
post #51
post #20

This is where the continental european model of the university is so much better than the anglo-american one. Universities should be about coursework and research, that's it. Dorms, dining halls, gyms, social clubs, sports etc. are not part of the university's mission

I disagree with you, however one aspect of the continental European model that I admire is the close integration between post-secondary education and industry. One of my cousins - who studied and now lives in Germany - did his Masters and PhD on the topic of work he was doing while working at , where he still works today. On the other hand, from my understanding such close integration between advanced degrees and ind…

This is not as common as you might think. Some universities do closely collaborate with their regional industry, but the vast majority of master thesis have zero practical application, just like in the US.
Post reply on HN