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Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#61
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable. No sympathy here for the college industry.

$15k/yr is not expensive. That's about the same as K-12. Most schools are $30-$60k/yr

>That's about the same as K-12

Are you forgetting the entirely free K-12 option here that most people grow up with?

>$15k/yr is not expensive

Ok....

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#62
post #10

My kid will be making his college choice in the coming year. As such, he's getting mail from colleges pretty much every day. The mailer from Vanderbilt really struck me as to the wrongheaded thinking of university leaders. On one side was this amazing blurb: "Vanderbilt financial aid packages DO NOT INCLUDE LOANS. IT'S FREE MONEY....65% of Vanderbilt students received some type of FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE" Tell me why co…

Over a decade ago when I was applying to schools, Vanderbilt also stood out as the worst experience. Parents were placed in a separate room a told that there only purpose is to pay the bill and the campus tour felt like a ghost town on a sunny Spring Friday

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#63

I was often told stories from the Boomer generation of people "working their way through college", holding part time jobs through college to pay for both living expenses and tuition. That is, quite literally, impossible today.

It's still possible if you go the computer science route and get a few good intern gigs, but the margins are quite tight. It's a far cry from paying for college by selling firewood, like my baby-boomer father did.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#64
Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school.

Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed the tables had a bachelors in mining science. The both of them came in well below what I earned, had no healthcare and no retirement. I remember having a few too many boilermakers one night and I asked why he was serving grease monkey clowns like us instead of working on flowers. Javon just said theres no work, and the work he would get would pay about as well as a fry cook anyway. He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan.

That scared the hell out of me. You could waste a hundred grand on something I always thought made people into millionaires and still wind up serving suds to a drunk in a blue jumper covered in soot from a runaway 2 stroke who thinks you "invent flowers." I woke up the next morning with a hangover and anxiety.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#65
Universities have to do all this proxying for a good education because they are unable to demonstrate the primary value: making you valuable to society.

If they did, they could simply publish "Median income distribution for graduating students by degree achieved". They currently sell a common lie: that there is a roundedness or completeness to education. This is common wisdom and false.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#66
post #2

I wish I could be more sympathetic to the college industrial complex, but they've been treat us poorly for years. Yes, I know it's our fault for demanding gold plated educational experiences and then going into crazy debt to finance it. But who wants to blame himself/herself? The job can be done better for much less. Indeed, it used to be much cheaper in the past when the dorms weren't so fancy and there were a bazil…

>The job can be done better for much less.

First and foremost, the lecture part of education is extremely inefficient. I know "watch the video" just doesn't work for some people, but charging for a live rendition of a repeated script, and then not valuing the person who watched the same recording equally, is absurd.

Education needs to acknowledge a couple things. 1) Theres probably a "best" lecture or lecturer out there for each topic. That's an overstatement, and a more documentary style edit of the best lectures is more realistic. The point is, there should be a collaborative way for lecturers around the country to contribute to a shared curriculum, and a group of people editing out redundancy. The amount of people in the country delivering roughly the same speeches is astounding. An open and shared processes for editing would allow for competing edits to exist simultaneously, a la forks and branches. 2) School needs to flip a bit and focus on the parts that need more individual attention. Discussions, Labs etc. Using physical space limitations in lecturers to create scarcity benefits only the schools. Anybody who has been in a 300 person lecture knows how little question and answer interaction there is with most professors, during the lecture. 3) a large portion of the value of school is networking. who you meet, who your environment is and who you absorb. is that the actual thing being sold, elitism? how do you fix that, when the product being sold is club membership under the guise of education? it's a way to manufacture class/caste divides there otherwise wouldnt be, or that would be even more nepotistic. its very much a "i had to do it to get in the club, so the next generation should too."

tldr: "school" is an artificially scarce elite caste membership. just because you pay the membership fee, doesnt mean you actually make the club, but getting in the lobby is a prereq to full membership. make school about education.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#67
post #61
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15k/yr is not expensive. That's about the same as K-12. Most schools are $30-$60k/yr

>That's about the same as K-12 Are you forgetting the entirely free K-12 option here that most people grow up with? >$15k/yr is not expensive Ok....

They're not free, they're differently funded.

My kids' school spends $21k/pupil/year.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#68
post #2

I wish I could be more sympathetic to the college industrial complex, but they've been treat us poorly for years. Yes, I know it's our fault for demanding gold plated educational experiences and then going into crazy debt to finance it. But who wants to blame himself/herself? The job can be done better for much less. Indeed, it used to be much cheaper in the past when the dorms weren't so fancy and there were a bazil…

If you want a book that will further erode sympathy towards colleges, try Paying For the Party https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-eliz...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#69
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a bit of a rat race in colleges posturing to get ahead of each other always, and that takes capital investment and the recourse to raise funds ends up being tuition. These things and reputations take years and tons of willpower and planning, so the risk of falling behind is immense.

If only we were somehow able to remove the ability to peacock and ensure everyone going through the system got a good education.... then rich people and employers would have much less to work with in terms of picking candidates based on school "reputation".

One solution I heard is changing the loan requirement to be a fixed price sole payment accepted with zero required additional bundling. They can have scholarships but none of this "must stay in our dorms the first year and meal plan, books must be bought from here now suddenly several thousand each" mark up smuggling opportunity bullshit. So there would be a driven for efficiency. You want federal money for education? It is accept $35K/yr per student or get bent.

There would be fine tuning in the numbers and parameters but that would kill price as a signal as a good thing as it forces either public rates or exorbitant private school which thinks they can actually make more without the massive prime consumer pool.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#70
post #25

I think it's time to decouple education from all of the other things tied to colleges. When I studied abroad in Australia, things like the gym or meal plans were available, but not "bundled in" to your tuition. The idea of tying competitive sports teams to a university would be laughable. We need to remove all of the "excess" stuff from higher education and get back to the core of education and research. Sure, things…

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