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Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#51

Post by vzidex »

geogra4 wrote: post #20

This is where the continental european model of the university is so much better than the anglo-american one. Universities should be about coursework and research, that's it. Dorms, dining halls, gyms, social clubs, sports etc. are not part of the university's mission

I disagree with you, however one aspect of the continental European model that I admire is the close integration between post-secondary education and industry. One of my cousins - who studied and now lives in Germany - did his Masters and PhD on the topic of work he was doing while working at , where he still works today.

On the other hand, from my understanding such close integration between advanced degrees and industry is less common in North America - to my disappointment.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#52

Post by gowld »

runawaybottle wrote: post #7
xhkkffbf wrote: post #2

I wish I could be more sympathetic to the college industrial complex, but they've been treat us poorly for years. Yes, I know it's our fault for demanding gold plated educational experiences and then going into crazy debt to finance it. But who wants to blame himself/herself? The job can be done better for much less. Indeed, it used to be much cheaper in the past when the dorms weren't so fancy and there were a bazil…

I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable. No sympathy here for the college industry.

$15k/yr is not expensive. That's about the same as K-12. Most schools are $30-$60k/yr

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#53

Post by JumpCrisscross »

tehjoker wrote: post #42
mgoblu3 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a bit of a rat race in colleges posturing to get ahead of each other always, and that takes capital investment and the recourse to raise funds ends up being tuition. These things and reputations take years and tons of willpower and planning, so the risk of falling behind is immense.

If only we were somehow able to remove the ability to peacock and ensure everyone going through the system got a good education.... then rich people and employers would have much less to work with in terms of picking candidates based on school "reputation".

> If only we were somehow able to remove the ability to peacock and ensure everyone going through the system got a good education

Good professors are rare. Good classmates are rare. Distributed education lets benefits from the former scale, albeit with degradation. There is no known way to scale access to the network of a good college experience.

Education quality varies with respect to both of the above. As a result, there is a scaling limit. As a result, there will be scarcity until the preconditions are solved or the scaling limits released.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#55

Post by bambataa »

geogra4 wrote: post #20

This is where the continental european model of the university is so much better than the anglo-american one. Universities should be about coursework and research, that's it. Dorms, dining halls, gyms, social clubs, sports etc. are not part of the university's mission

I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life. Allocate some buildings to the student body, get them to organise themselves and throw a bit of a cash at them. I think that's a good balance. I studied at a university with quite a focus on "college life" and it was nice to feel part of something but we didn't need to organise our social lives.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#56

Post by craftinator »

asah wrote: post #39
craftinator wrote: post #22

I was often told stories from the Boomer generation of people "working their way through college", holding part time jobs through college to pay for both living expenses and tuition. That is, quite literally, impossible today.

Even GenX attending certain state schools could partially pay for school this way, especially if you had low/free rent, for example living at home.

Can you provide some sources for this? Let's assume minimum wage, calculate average living expenses, hours spent in class and doing HW vs hours working. I know I spent at least 70hrs a week doing school.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#57

Post by sharkiwi »

craftinator wrote: post #22

I was often told stories from the Boomer generation of people "working their way through college", holding part time jobs through college to pay for both living expenses and tuition. That is, quite literally, impossible today.

It is in a city. I'm working to pay for my living expenses and full-time university currently ongoing -- not really struggling, either. The last few weeks of each semester requires sacrificing some sleep, though.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#58

Post by macinjosh »

say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #15

The culture of higher education isn't what it used to be. The advancement of knowledge is now secondary to economic growth in a university. Students begin as customers and turn into products by graduation. Universities used to be gatekeepers to better economic opportunities but those opportunities have disappeared. This is a relatively recent phenomenon in that Baby Boomers don't have the student loan obligations tha…

> The advancement of knowledge is now secondary to economic growth in a university.

I will second this just taking from my own experiences.

> Students begin as customers and turn into products by graduation.

To add to this the students' parents have also wedged themselves into the customer category. They are often footing the bill or at least the loan payments and some of the more helicopter-like parents feel entitled to demand universities do more and have more for their precious children.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#59

Post by czinck »

vidanay wrote: post #9
runawaybottle wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable. No sympathy here for the college industry.

Gotta pay for those basketball and football programs somehow. (Yes, SOME athletics programs are net positive - most are not)

Your source says "athletic departments", not football or basketball programs, which is an important distinction. Football and basketball are the only money-makers (I think hockey or baseball make money at a few schools), and all of the other sports drag down the athletic departments budget.

That's also ignoring that FBS is basically advertising. There's been a steady increase in applications (and subsequently an increase in average GPA and similar numbers) at University of Alabama under Nick Saban, and I know I would have been less likely to go to Virginia Tech if it wasn't for their football program drawing me in when I was in middle/high school.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#60

Post by raiyu »

lumost wrote: post #33
irishcoffee wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the loans. I have a funny feeling if loans were capped at say, 10k/year, colleges might all the sudden charge 11k/year to attend instead of 30k...

One of the oddities in the college process is how public universities followed the price increases of their private counterparts. Why weren't state governments able to dictate effective cost controls to keep costs down for residents? Note that I'm aware of in-state tuition. The main campus of my state university charges 30k/year instate, and 40k/year out of state. Neither number is appropriate in a state with a media…

What I read was that the reason for in-state college tuition increasing so much was because of the reduction in property taxes.

Typically property taxes go towards education at the local level, and as property taxes were reduced there would be a shortfall in the budget somewhere. This typically fell on education, which then forced colleges to start raising tuition as there is still a non-zero cost to education.

There was a "print" article about this in the 70's or 80's in a local newspaper in California urging residents to vote NO on lowering property taxes citing the increase in future college education as the main reason. But the vote went through, property taxes were slashed, and then of course ten years later and so forth, tuition had sky rocketed.

Decreasing taxes is like debt. Once you are hooked on it it's hard to go back. Hard to imagine any real states or large communities raising property taxes significantly to actually reinvest in the local community.

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