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A case for ending lockdown

ryankemper.io

161–170 of 381 posts

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. Consider that many governments with professional public health departments, including those of the richest countries in the world, downplayed the unfolding disaster, completely blew it on containment as a result, and are now reduced to using _extremely_ expensive lockdown measures to try to buy time until someone can come up with a better idea. Meanwhile, plenty of randos on the internet did the str…

>Consider that many governments with professional public health departments, including those of the richest countries in the world, downplayed the unfolding disaster, completely blew it on containment as a result Governments are ultimately run on a day to day basis by politicians. Proactive measures to prevent a crisis are a much tougher action to justify, especially if they negatively affect people in a way more dir…

It can go both ways; here in Portugal the government closed stuff like schools despite the National Public Health Council saying that was disproportionate.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#162

> Encourage at-risk groups to self quarantine, and utilize testing to protect them...Those with obesity and COPD Author suggests self-quarantine for the obese instead of quarantine/lockdown for everyone. The CDC suggests that +42% of the US adult population is obese [0]. Are we really going to isolate or quarantine 4 out of 10 US adults and imagine the economy can get back on track? [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/d…

"Are we really going to isolate or quarantine 4 out of 10 US adults and imagine the economy can get back on track?"

Better than everyone pulling their hair out at home. Plus, why not have people choose themselves whether they're healthy enough to take chances and go out to work?

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#163

I just hate these blogs saying this virus is akin to the the flu. Does the flu leave bodies in trucks, apartments, and bagged on the streets? Does the flu kill dozens of workers in meat processing plants every year. Does the flu take more than ten years of life from the average person it kills? Also, suicide death rates are still wildly unknown but deaths by traffic fatalities are way down. We need to get help to peo…

> I just hate these blogs saying this virus is akin to the the flu Author here. That's a mischaracterization of what I said. But yes it is true that overall mortality is similar to the flu. I settled on COVID-19 being 3x as deadly, but that figure is up to debate. The important thing to understand is the varying risk profiles. The flu kills the very young and very old, whereas COVID-19 primarily kills the very old. >…

Please get the virus, and then spread it to your mom, dad and elder siblongs. Once that has happened come back to us and let us know how similar to the flu you think it is.

I had it. Its o way similar to the flu.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most deaths in most countries are in nursing homes. Do we not care if older people die?

UK also shut down fairly hard and that still didn't stop the spread in nursing homes. So lockdown does not automatically seem to stop the contagion from coming into nursing homes. Makes sense really. Maybe a focused effort should be made to protect nursing homes.

The UK did not shut down very hard nor early, New Zealands recently "relaxed" lockdown is basically the same has what the UK has been under

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#165
The premise of this post is extremely flawed:

> Weeks and months later, facts on the ground show that the purported collapse of the healthcare system did not occur.

Yes, because we locked down population centers quickly. That's the whole point. ICUs have still been over capacity though. Without the lockdowns, it's obvious we'd have a lot more dead people the past month.

> Moreover, this was not due to success in seriously curtailing the spread in hard-hit areas like New York, but was rather due to the aforementioned discovery that COVID-19, while extremely deadly in certain subsets of the population, was not nearly as deadly overall as previously thought.

This is a lie followed by possible truth. New York and other cities were under pretty extreme lockdowns (all non-essential businesses closed, social distancing, but most people have been staying inside) for the past two months. If one asserts that had no or little effect, well... HN doesn't take kindly to what I'd like to say. Let's just say that you're delusional.

> An analysis of the flawed IMHE model is outside the scope of this article

Ah, how convenient - lying about the effect of the lockdowns and attributing it instead to (nothing? since ICUs have clearly been over capacity while we've cut down transmission rates) then ignoring analysis of them.

I didn't really dive into the rest of the article since I don't really like reading words written by intellectually dishonest people.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#166

> Encourage at-risk groups to self quarantine, and utilize testing to protect them...Those with obesity and COPD Author suggests self-quarantine for the obese instead of quarantine/lockdown for everyone. The CDC suggests that +42% of the US adult population is obese [0]. Are we really going to isolate or quarantine 4 out of 10 US adults and imagine the economy can get back on track? [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/d…

"Are we really going to isolate or quarantine 4 out of 10 US adults and imagine the economy can get back on track?" Better than everyone pulling their hair out at home. Plus, why not have people choose themselves whether they're healthy enough to take chances and go out to work?

> Plus, why not have people choose themselves whether they're healthy enough to take chances and go out to work?

Because people who chose to take that risk will still go back to their homes and infect people who'd rather not, or can't afford to.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#167

What about the situation in northern Italy? In the absence of a lockdown, the healthcare system did collapse, or came very close to doing so and this was only averted when the government implemented draconian quarantine policies. The article claims that the survival of the healthcare system in places that implemented a lockdown has nothing to do with the lockdown, but then gives no evidence at all to back up that ass…

The current policy post immediate emergency was criticized by a top scientist in Italy just today (obligatory disclaimer: he is the head of the institute I work in, but the views and opinions I express here are my own), and in fact he said that the government is not thinking forward with regards to preparing the health system to better handle this pandemic.

As an addition, not all the measures were correct to "fight" the pandemic in Northern Italy, where I am located. Glaring errors were made in putting patients within nursing homes, with "guarantees" of separation. Well, these guarantees did not hold, and death counts flared up there. To be fair, this also happened in all nursing homes in the country.

Also some regions were more efficient than others, some even started implementing contact tracing in absence of a position from the government (still not clear as of today).

I believe that a more directed lockdown (or avoiding errors like in Alzano Lombardo, near Bergamo, where basically a hospital turned into an "infection center") would've worked miles better than the current situation, where regions with almost no new infections are locked up as much as those with significant counts.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#168
post #158

> Encourage at-risk groups to self quarantine, and utilize testing to protect them...Those with obesity and COPD Author suggests self-quarantine for the obese instead of quarantine/lockdown for everyone. The CDC suggests that +42% of the US adult population is obese [0]. Are we really going to isolate or quarantine 4 out of 10 US adults and imagine the economy can get back on track? [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/d…

> Are we really going to isolate or quarantine 4 out of 10 US adults and imagine the economy can get back on track? It's a good start. Also "encourage" is different from "enforce".

"Encourage" is different from "enforce", but very similar to "doesn't work". Once isolation becomes voluntary, the job market will make sure that people won't isolate even if they wanted to. A common thread of the current pandemic measures is that people get to protect themselves in ways that would destroy their careers if they weren't mandated top-down by the government.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#169

> Encourage at-risk groups to self quarantine, and utilize testing to protect them...Those with obesity and COPD Author suggests self-quarantine for the obese instead of quarantine/lockdown for everyone. The CDC suggests that +42% of the US adult population is obese [0]. Are we really going to isolate or quarantine 4 out of 10 US adults and imagine the economy can get back on track? [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/d…

Hey, I switched to working from home seamlessly. Many other people did too. There's plenty of at-home work.

If I bought the assumption that getting COVID19 was relatively safe for me, I'd gladly swap jobs to keep someone else safe, especially if it meant moving up in the world. An at-risk individual could do my job, and I'd take their in-person job.

While I think there are better mechanisms, free markets could take care of swapping people around. If you're self-quarantining, and you have a better job than I do, I'll take your job. My job is now vacant for you. That's far from ideal -- you've just taken a pay cut -- but it's far better than mass unemployment.

What we'd need from there would be much cheaper than the successive stimuli (e.g. support for at-risk low-income individuals: like a stimulus check, bigger, but only to people who need it).

Now, to be willing to do this, I'd need to believe COVID19 is relatively safe for me (e.g. <1% odds of death _or significant long-term complications_). That's an assumption I don't buy. By looking at IFR/CFR numbers, we've ignored the much bigger question: how many people end up with permanent lung damage or other organ damage. Until we have a clear answer, I'm in lock-down mode unless I'm forced out.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#170

> Encourage at-risk groups to self quarantine, and utilize testing to protect them...Those with obesity and COPD Author suggests self-quarantine for the obese instead of quarantine/lockdown for everyone. The CDC suggests that +42% of the US adult population is obese [0]. Are we really going to isolate or quarantine 4 out of 10 US adults and imagine the economy can get back on track? [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/d…

"Are we really going to isolate or quarantine 4 out of 10 US adults and imagine the economy can get back on track?" Better than everyone pulling their hair out at home. Plus, why not have people choose themselves whether they're healthy enough to take chances and go out to work?

Because whether or not the virus affects them, they can still become a carrier and pass it on to others.
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