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A case for ending lockdown

ryankemper.io

91–100 of 381 posts

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#91
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having, as you suggested, skipped just to the TL;DR, this bit jumped out at me as something that we very much don't know is true, and that it's dangerous to assume is true without proof: > Once you get sick, you can’t get sick again for a long time. Eventually you might be able to get sick again, but it will not be very bad. When enough people have gotten sick and then gotten better, the sickness can’t spread any mor…

“There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second infection.” From WHO a few days ago: https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/immunity-p...

And there's been studies out of Korea since that have shown that patients do indeed receive antibodies that provide immunity as well as showing that many recovered patients produce false negatives due to deactivated viruses still in their system. One of which was at the top of HN yesterday.

Also, the WHO said shit like this: https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/who-haunted-by-old-tweet-sayin...

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#92
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is called 'overshoot'. See here for a good explanation https://twitter.com/CT_Bergstrom/status/1252077930286444545

Thanks. That was helpful. So then, it does seem that if we successfully contained the virus, and then avoided infection spread until a hypothetical future vaccine is developed, that we could avoid the number of infections required by some amount. Just to tie it back to the broader lockdown vs not lockdown debate, we could probably say that a successful full containment strategy+vaccination could decrease the net area…

So you are telling me, that you write an article with misstakes and think you should be the person making statements because you are able to write an article?

And you also think, that politicians are doing an economycal suicide just because they like it?

Srsly, wouldn't you assume and shouldn't you assume, that there are experts calculating and estimating that shit on every single day and trying there best to find a reasonable way out of this?

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but I can't take serious something that claims to take an impartial look at all the evidence related to the lockdown but then tries its damnedest to present all possible negatives it could without doing the same for positives. For example, there's clear evidence that the lockdown has decreased lives lost to traffic accidents but that appears nowhere here. And then when actually looking at it, it's full of p…

> Specifically, once the proportion of recovered in the population reaches 1/(1-R_0), there are no longer enough vectors (infectable indviduals) remaining for a serious outbreak to occur. It’s worth noting that this is the same principle that vaccination relies upon; vaccination is just an artificial way to build immunity without having to undergo a full infection. I should learn to never read anything from random pe…

> The `1/(1-R_0)` value gives you the point where infected people infect 1 more person

Right: it's (after you correct the typo) the point where the number of active cases does not increase over time.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even when the R0 reaches 1.0 those who are infected will still infect one more person (on average). Infections continue to happen after the R0 is below 1.0.

Thanks, that does make intuitive sense. I wonder for a virus like SARS-CoV-2 that has a high R_0 and thus requires maybe 80% of the population to be immune for full herd immunity, if that means that the overshoot would be pretty mild?

It would mean the overshoot would likely go close to 100%, but it is complex to model as not everyone is equally likely to be infected - basically the population is not uniform. Epidemiologist do model this, but it requires relatively complex models.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#95

I just hate these blogs saying this virus is akin to the the flu. Does the flu leave bodies in trucks, apartments, and bagged on the streets? Does the flu kill dozens of workers in meat processing plants every year. Does the flu take more than ten years of life from the average person it kills? Also, suicide death rates are still wildly unknown but deaths by traffic fatalities are way down. We need to get help to peo…

> I just hate these blogs saying this virus is akin to the the flu Author here. That's a mischaracterization of what I said. But yes it is true that overall mortality is similar to the flu. I settled on COVID-19 being 3x as deadly, but that figure is up to debate. The important thing to understand is the varying risk profiles. The flu kills the very young and very old, whereas COVID-19 primarily kills the very old. >…

Two comments. One, saying something that is 300% larger than another is “similar” is stretching the definition of similarity. Two, both the numerator and the denominator matter in the death rate. In a given year, maybe 20% of the population get the seasonal flu. We could potentially see 80+% of the population contract covid. That’s another 4x multiplier of fatalities, but also hospitalizations.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#96

If it's not obvious, I wrote this. The intent is to be a fairly comprehensive coverage of what we know about COVID-19 and what it means for our policy. Note that the article is written from a US-based perspective although I suspect it's relevant to a broader audience. In general, I believe that the case against lockdown has been highly stigmatized and thus many people have not been exposed to a convincing argument of…

The mortality rates you quote are for the case when the number of cases is low and the hospital system is working. To see what happens otherwise look at Madrid, look at the UK aiming to "protect the NHS". If you had unlimited hospital capacities your analysis would make sense, but that is the whole point(!). If you can flatten the curve, then covid is manageable, if you can't your hospital system collapses and suddenly everything not just covid is much more deadly.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#97
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, `1/1-R_0`. This is exactly what Wikipedia says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#Mechanics I have no expertise in this area, but Wikipedia does not say: 1/(1 - R_0) It's: 1 - (1/R_0) Which makes much more sense to me on a math footing. You should probably fix that in your article so it doesn't confuse other pedants like myself.

Doh! Thanks for catching that. That is a really glaring mistake on my part. (The irony in me having said it was "exactly" what Wikipedia says is not lost on me :P) https://gitlab.com/ryankemper/writings/-/commit/093ade629447...

No worries - it was clearly just a typo :-)

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#98

Nice article, I think you’ve gotten a lot right, and i think analyses like this get down to the point where we can have a rational discussion. Here are some counterpoints: 1. Looking at NYC, the fatality rate is roughly 0.5%. This is based on a 20% positive antibody sample, which is getting large enough that the false positives aren’t overwhelming the data any longer. 2. If we take that as a given, then if 100% of th…

Thanks. The NYC data is something I want to add in there eventually. I agree with your assessment and reached a similar number myself. The main thing that gives me some doubt is it seems plausible that we'll retroactively find that the deaths directly attributable to COVID-19 were somewhat overstated, in the sense that my understanding is a presumed COVID-19 diagnosis is accepted in lieu of having a positive test. (Which BTW I don't necessarily disagree with because testing was and is a bottleneck so the overstatement is almost certainly less than the understatement would have been if being more rigorous). We also know that there is [financial incentive](https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-...) to code deaths as COVID related. I'm really curious how the influenza mortality data ends up looking for these months - the key question being, do we see a large dropoff in Influenza deaths that might indicate that basically any ILI is being written up as COVID-19?

The above being said, I think the new york numbers are a perfect upper bound for something close to what a worst case scenario looks like. Although we'd have to look at the age breakdown and obesity rates there; it's definitely very imaginable that there might be other cities in the US with relatively more at-risk individuals.

(BTW I didn't explain it thoroughly in the writeup but New York's data is why I gave a really broad range of .1-.7% net IFR - and it should be clear but this is still very napkin math-y on my part)

I'm also curious if NY serological data includes Anyway, the above is all a really drawn out way of saying that I agree :P

> Additionally, if we give up on social distancing, then those people will die in a large wave, overwhelming our hospitals.

If we gave up everything, certainly. I think with mitigation targeted at the at-risk, that's less likely.

For me "ending lockdown" doesn't mean that everyone stops wearing masks and/or trying to maintain physical distance where possible. But I do want to avoid a scenario where we're mandating that people wear masks outside as opposed to just encouraging them to.

But I do agree that just because we haven't overwhelmed hospitals yet doesn't mean that we're in the clear. I was considering saying as much in the doc but wanted to keep the word count down for the first iteration.

However I do think that since pretty much every city has at least some low amount of infection, and that we will have some capacity to do some clever shuffling of ventilators, tents, etc, that hospital overrun isn't nearly as much of a risk at this point overall.

> 4. I would love to see a plan that keeps seniors safe and lets everyone else out. So far, that plan is not forthcoming. It’s hard to see how we keep them safe if their family living with them and their caregivers are all infected. So far, we’ve done a piss poor job of keeping them safe in senior living facilities, even with a lockdown.

Yeah, really the best thing would be voluntary exposure of people surrounding the at-risk individuals. But I don't foresee that actually happening. I really think nursing homes are the low-hanging fruit here, and as you indicated it seems like we've already kind of screwed that one up in a lot of places.

But essentially, in the alternative of full containment+waiting for vaccine, it seems to me much harder for the caregivers surrounding the extremely-at-risk to be able to avoid getting infected and passing it on to the at-risk, whereas in a scenario where they can get it over with then they don't have to worry at all going forward. But that requires being able to detect that you're sick before infecting the at-risk individual so that you can isolate while recovering, which obviously requires really good testing capacity.

Basically, it would be great if we could selectively redirect the bulk of our testing capacity for individuals in these situations. But there's not a very clear way to do that, the last thing we want is having a bureaucrat decide if you're eligible for a test or not. So perhaps the best we can do is - and this is a theme here - encouraging those who are surrounding at-risk individuals to get tested extremely frequently.

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Lastly just wanted to call out this:

> I think you’ve gotten a lot right, and i think analyses like this get down to the point where we can have a rational discussion.

That means a lot. I really want us as a society to get to a point where there is broad agreement on what the facts on the ground are, so that differences in policy come down to differences in philosophy/values rather than where it feels like we're at now as a society, which is basically two warring factions each with non-intersecting sets of facts ("the death rate is 5%!" versus "no the death rate is .03!)

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#99
post #40

> SARS-CoV-2 is a virus that can make you sick. Some people don’t feel sick at all, some people feel a little bit sick, and a very small group of people, especially old people, get very sick and might die. Maybe mention something about the long term issues that it appears could be a reality for even those who "don’t feel sick at all, some people feel a little bit sick"? Also, while the the goal of flattening the curv…

> Maybe mention something about the long term issues that it appears could be a reality for even those who "don’t feel sick at all, some people feel a little bit sick"? Have you seen any scientific literature alleging this possibility in those who are not seriously ill? Not to sound like the WHO, but I have not personally come across any evidence that this is at all true. And indeed it seems highly non-credible. > Al…

The popular press has summarized an article from NEJM discussing five strokes in relatively young patients with either asymptomatic or mild covid cases. Yes, it’s anecdotal. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/robertglat...

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#100
post #3

Everyone is an epidemiologist in a pandemic.

I have yet to find a directionally-lockdown-lessening argument from an epidemiologist. Are you aware of any? This and David Katz are the closest things I've read.

It seems to me these are big questions that necessitate a healthy debate considering all the pros and cons of lockdown measures. There's a lot of moving parts and dimensions: time, which activities should be resumed or kept closed, who should observe what protective measures, travel restrictions, etc. We need people, experts from various fields AND layfolk, to have a real dialog about them. "Lockdown until vaccine unless proven otherwise" is simply not going to work.

Perhaps I haven't found these kind of voices because there is not actually a decent argument to be made. Maybe I've just missed them. Maybe epidemiologists aren't, by and large, disposed to think about economic impact, long term health implications of living in lockdown, or other second order effects. Or quite likely they are scared shitless to make anything resembling a pro-opening argument because their field is ridden with groupthink orthodoxy at the moment. Much like we see from whichever (IMO) bad actors were flagging this post.

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