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German government to bail Lufthansa out of bankruptcy with nearly $10B state aid

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Re: German government to bail Lufthansa out of bankruptcy with nearly $10B state aid

#161

Post by econcon »

derriz wrote: post #158
econcon wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it didn't work this way, protectionism wouldn't exist. There are various economics models which show Germany has benefited the most from creation of EU Sure countries in middle of Europe and east are improving their baseline but it's nothing compared to what Germany has achieved. Germany is effectively china of EU. It's funny to see the same people who oppose China's currency manipulation are in favour of EU I sug…

Hmm takes about 5 minutes of googling to find annualised GDP per-capita growth rates for countries. Using the 1990-2015 period (because the numbers are directly available on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_growt... ). The following countries all grew by MORE than Germany: Poland (8.5%), Romania (6.9%), Lithuania (6.9%), Slovakia (6.7%), Czech Republic (6.6%), Estonia (6.4%), Ireland…

Germany started from much stronger position, so grow rates don't tell us the whole story.

Compare the living standards, so you want to argue Poland with 8.5% growth has higher living standards than Germany?

Re: German government to bail Lufthansa out of bankruptcy with nearly $10B state aid

#162

Post by danielfoster »

oaiey wrote: post #90
wiz21c wrote: post #4

Does it mean that every german will have to pay about $10B / 80m = 125 euros for that ? So it means that they'll have, for example, to wait a little longer to buy their next phone, or lunch ? (I ask the question here because that's the kind of reasoning I read in the press but I'd like to know if it's as simple as that)

Are you kidding. We citizen will earn money by that. Germany will borrow 10 billion with negative interest and invest in a solid company at a low point. Now you can argue, that the flight sector will never recover, which I agree too, but that will not change anything. Lufthansa is a very solid airline. There will be hundreds of small airlines leaving the market with the Lufthansa to pick the market shares up.

And increasing the ticket prices Germans pay with their own money through the continuation of their government-sponsored monopoly.

Re: German government to bail Lufthansa out of bankruptcy with nearly $10B state aid

#163

Post by derriz »

econcon wrote: post #161
derriz wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm takes about 5 minutes of googling to find annualised GDP per-capita growth rates for countries. Using the 1990-2015 period (because the numbers are directly available on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_growt... ). The following countries all grew by MORE than Germany: Poland (8.5%), Romania (6.9%), Lithuania (6.9%), Slovakia (6.7%), Czech Republic (6.6%), Estonia (6.4%), Ireland…

Germany started from much stronger position, so grow rates don't tell us the whole story. Compare the living standards, so you want to argue Poland with 8.5% growth has higher living standards than Germany?

"So you want to argue Poland with 8.5% growth has higher living standards than Germany" - why would I want to argue that?

I mean I've said absolutely nothing about living standards and neither did you? Why not simply read what I've written instead of inventing arguments for me to make?

I've provided some basic numbers and references which directly contradict your claim that Germany benefitted most from the structures of the EU.

I give up. I tried to explain some reasons why you might be getting downvoted but it's been a waste of time.

Re: German government to bail Lufthansa out of bankruptcy with nearly $10B state aid

#164

Post by wdb »

derriz wrote: post #146
GordonS wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, they have £1k of my money, which they've held on to for over a month already, and are refusing to refund. It looks like it will be several months at best before they refund it. I plan to do a chargeback in the meantime. I get that Ryanair are in financial difficulties, but they can't expect their customers to bail them out, and are behaving unlawfully - I'm damn sure I wouldn't get away with it, so neith…

It's not only Ryanair - Air France are doing the same.

Air France also want the profits from KLM which actually runs well compared to AF. I wouldn’t mind if they split up again.

Re: German government to bail Lufthansa out of bankruptcy with nearly $10B state aid

#165

Post by StreamBright »

baq wrote: post #112
StreamBright wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or let these companies fail and free up the air routes across Europe and create a more efficient company? I do not think that we need to keep bailing out airlines at all. Lufthansa has so many issues, starting with their website, internal problems (try to get an invoice from them), etc. Why do we (the taxpayers) have to pay for their failures of these airlines?

how long does it take to build an efficient airline? why do you think it won't be a net positive for the tax payer? it's literally the government buying low and selling high when this is over.

Look at the Asian airlines. Many of them were built recently. My personal favorite is Air Asia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirAsia

Re: German government to bail Lufthansa out of bankruptcy with nearly $10B state aid

#166

Post by makomk »

netcan wrote: post #89
makomk wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Matt Levine has pointed out before that the amount of money it would take to keep US airlines going was likely to be more than their pre-Covid market cap. It's a big reason why the idea that they should just have saved up enough money to not need bailouts instead of paying out to shareholders is a non-starter; the value of the airlines to shareholders is less than the amount it would cost, because air travel…

Got a link to Levine's post?

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-17/the-go...

Re: German government to bail Lufthansa out of bankruptcy with nearly $10B state aid

#168

Post by hanniabu »

BalinKing wrote: post #53
hanniabu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we can't let them fail, that'd be capitalism!

The fact that the shutdowns are government-enforced is where the "it's capitalism" argument breaks down. The market's no longer free due to the government, so it makes sense that they would then try to offset the corresponding economic damage.

There will always be excuses. At the end of the day it's always capitalized profits, socialized losses.

Re: German government to bail Lufthansa out of bankruptcy with nearly $10B state aid

#169

Post by ricaud »

viklove wrote: post #123
baq wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how long does it take to build an efficient airline? why do you think it won't be a net positive for the tax payer? it's literally the government buying low and selling high when this is over.

Not long, when a massive airline recently went bankrupt and you can purchase their assets at fire sale prices and hire their now-jobless employees.

If you purchase their assets and hire their jobless employees wouldn’t you still have the same inefficient airline?

Re: German government to bail Lufthansa out of bankruptcy with nearly $10B state aid

#170

Post by phatfish »

alexott wrote: post #138
econcon wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airline is the infrastructure tho, cheap air travel is available throughout EU. If you remove that, economy will take major hit. There is hardly any reading block with cooperation like EU. You fly from France to Italy and work with people there then you fly to Switzerland and demonstrate your product their and then you deal with marketing agency in UK to market your products at global level. It becomes inefficient wi…

Lufthansa is never close to cheap flights...

Sure the flights under the Lufthansa brand are premium. But they do have other brands like Germanwings which are more affordable (though barely I will admit).
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