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YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

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Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by this standard YouTube is also “silencing (deplatforming)” people who don’t have computers because it’s not giving them resources to help them make and post videos. unlike directly removing videos from their platform youtube is not responsible for preventing people from having a computer. We should all however strive to make computers and internet access as accessible to people as possible. > Deplatforming is not…

>The default state is a very limited platform (those immediately around you at any given time perhaps), but when you explicitly provide a platform for the public to use and then censor voices because you don't like what they have to say you're violating free speech principles. If the You I highlighted was the state, you would be correct. But it isnt.

There's nothing wrong with expecting public companies to uphold the ideal of free speech even though they aren't legally compelled to uphold the right of free speech. Companies can certainly violate free speech principles.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may well be true, but it's not a reason for me to think of Google/YouTube's behavior as in any way acceptable.

So in order to have a business, you believe that you should have to cater to everyone regardless of what they do or say because otherwise you are censoring them?

I think that if you get a reputation for immoral behavior, even if it's legal, your business is going to eventually pay a price (and rightfully so).

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> entirely populated and funded by the public You just described every single business in the whole world except those funded by taxpayer money (which is generally what is meant by "funded by the public"). Actually, YouTube isn't even funded by the public -- they're funded by advertisers. > Its reasonable to have different rules for a local newspaper vs a worldwide monopolist. All local newspapers are owned by large…

YouTube is almost the exclusive (by daily views) provider. How can that be in question?

That doesn't make it a monopoly! My local big box grocery store has more visitors than my local corner store.

Any other video provider on the Internet is just as accessible. If YouTube went away tomorrow, videos would still exist on the Internet. Most videos posted to YouTube of any value would immediately show up elsewhere.

Have you considered YouTube is popular because it's at least a little bit curated? Heck, YouTube wouldn't even exist without ContentID.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you claimed "an expert made a statement". I want to clarify. No expert made a statement on youtube. Two nonexperts made statements, and Youtube removed them, presumably at the behest of experts (like the WHO, whom youtube is using to set guidelines on removable content).

A doctor on the frontlines is an expert. He may not specialize in epidemiology or virology, but his credentials are sufficient that the difference between credibility between the scientists and the doctors is too small for youtube to reliably choose one over the other. YouTube is not an accreditation agency or an arbiter of credibility. YouTube has no authority to suppress credible doctors from going against the cons…

> He may not specialize in epidemiology or virology

Exactly, so he should not be speaking on epidemiology. And it's even more dangerous because people, like you, believe he could be an expert.

> YouTube has no authority to suppress credible doctors from going against the consensus.

But the WHO does.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YouTube is almost the exclusive (by daily views) provider. How can that be in question?

That doesn't make it a monopoly! My local big box grocery store has more visitors than my local corner store. Any other video provider on the Internet is just as accessible. If YouTube went away tomorrow, videos would still exist on the Internet. Most videos posted to YouTube of any value would immediately show up elsewhere. Have you considered YouTube is popular because it's at least a little bit curated? Heck, YouT…

Ok, overwhelming market leader then.

The rules for it should be carefully considered, since it is a unicorn.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make it a monopoly! My local big box grocery store has more visitors than my local corner store. Any other video provider on the Internet is just as accessible. If YouTube went away tomorrow, videos would still exist on the Internet. Most videos posted to YouTube of any value would immediately show up elsewhere. Have you considered YouTube is popular because it's at least a little bit curated? Heck, YouT…

Ok, overwhelming market leader then. The rules for it should be carefully considered, since it is a unicorn.

You're begging the question. Overwhelming market leader means nothing -- it doesn't automatically create any new obligations or responsibilities.

You actually have to make the argument that an overwhelming market leader in an otherwise niche market requires them to give up their free speech, marketing ability, hosting limits, income, etc.

Even having a monopoly isn't illegal; a company actually has to be convicted of abusing a monopoly position for anything to be required of them.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#667
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is spam free speech? Are bookstores required to stock every book ever published? Are fraud and defamation free speech? Must newspapers post every classified ad submitted to them? Is medical advice free speech? Are government clerks required to serve verbally abusive clients? No, no, no... there are plenty of examples where the right to free speech is found to have limits. Especially when that speech violates other fr…

Did you actually read the post you're responding to? I'm confused on why you would view this as a response to what I said. Again, the question isn't "do social media platforms have the right to censor?". The question is, "given social media platforms have the legal right to censor, should they censor?". If you don't understand that there might be reasons to do something beyond legal obligation or profit, you're not e…

> Did you actually read the post you're responding to?

> ... you're not equipped to participate in this conversation.

Please review the site guidelines and take a more charitable approach to this conversation. There's some irony that your argument around ideologically pure free speech is punctuated by insinuation that I should self-censor because I'm not ideologically pure enough.

I provided a handful of reasons where speech can do harm, and where forced publication impinges other rights. I'm saying that yes, "platforms" (which are also publishers / promoters / marketers due to features such search, recommendation, featured content etc.) have an obligation, ethical or legal, to take certain content down. In the case of spam, that content is taken down or shadowbanned for the greater good. That's a free ethical choice, not a legal obligation.

By all means, there are cases where publishers should resist external pressure to censor, and I fully agree that Congress shall make no law. But youtube isn't the government. They have a right to curate the content that they distribute that is just as important as your right to produce and self-publish your content.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A doctor on the frontlines is an expert. He may not specialize in epidemiology or virology, but his credentials are sufficient that the difference between credibility between the scientists and the doctors is too small for youtube to reliably choose one over the other. YouTube is not an accreditation agency or an arbiter of credibility. YouTube has no authority to suppress credible doctors from going against the cons…

> He may not specialize in epidemiology or virology Exactly, so he should not be speaking on epidemiology. And it's even more dangerous because people, like you, believe he could be an expert. > YouTube has no authority to suppress credible doctors from going against the consensus. But the WHO does.

Great, and the WHO is welcome to keep the doctors video off of their platform.

Ignoring ramifications of politicization, How many developments will be missed if we embark on a campaign to suppress all dissenting opinions?

You don't think a doctor on the front line is qualified to make inferences about the disease that he is literally treating en masse? You don't think direct observation and experimentation with hundreds of patients could provide valuable insight into the properties of this disease or potential working treatments and/or best practices? How far backwards are you going to bend to defend this position?

Again, the fact that this particular decision agrees with your preconceived notions does not mean that YouTube's emerging practice of choosing truth is good for society. The WHO is also not the only qualified body, nor is it a final authority, yet here YouTube is suddenly treating it as one and, conveniently, YouTube's political slant is aligned with this particular decision. If we allow this behavior, it won't be the last time that YouTube picks a winner and shapes the reality perceived by millions of people. This is a possibly unprecedented amount of soft power and it is being used without oversight or control by the society that is being influenced by it.

I'm not suggesting we make it illegal but educated citizens should be at least resistant to the idea, not welcoming of it because it happens to agree with their politics now. The same goes for Google and FB and any other platform that acts as a window to information - these corporations are not authorities and should not be gatekeeping information. Long term that's a far greater danger to society than COVID19.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you're selling electricity you generally don't get to refuse service to anyone.

Google doesn't sell ip packets.

Also much of the world right now is operating under a state of emergency.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He may not specialize in epidemiology or virology Exactly, so he should not be speaking on epidemiology. And it's even more dangerous because people, like you, believe he could be an expert. > YouTube has no authority to suppress credible doctors from going against the consensus. But the WHO does.

Great, and the WHO is welcome to keep the doctors video off of their platform. Ignoring ramifications of politicization, How many developments will be missed if we embark on a campaign to suppress all dissenting opinions? You don't think a doctor on the front line is qualified to make inferences about the disease that he is literally treating en masse? You don't think direct observation and experimentation with hundr…

> Ignoring ramifications of politicization,

Let's not. It's relevant to real world actions.

> You don't think a doctor on the front line is qualified to make inferences about the disease that he is literally treating en masse?

About symptoms or specific treatment plans, perhaps. About government response? No. It's the difference between macro and micro scale approaches. The front line doctors are experts at mirco-scale treatment. Epidemiologists are best at macro-scale treatments. The two skillsets are not the same. An expert at one is not an expert at the other, and no amount of repeating that belief will change that.

> Again, the fact that this particular decision agrees with your preconceived notions does not mean that YouTube's emerging practice of choosing truth is good for society.

Correct. I just happen to believe that suppressing lies that can kill people if they believe them is also a good thing. Or do you think that "take Hydroxychloroquine, it's a miracle drug" should be posted on the youtube homepage?

> The WHO is also not the only qualified body, nor is it a final authority, yet here YouTube is suddenly treating it as one and, conveniently, YouTube's political slant is aligned with this particular decision

What is the political slant you're describing? The WHO, CDC, and pretty much every expert body on epidemiology in the world, in every nation, from Iran to Argentina to Germany to China are doing approximately the same thing. The political spectrums in those nations cross the gamut. Yet they're all following the same treatment plan for the pandemic response. What is the political slant?

> If we allow this behavior, it won't be the last time that YouTube picks a winner and shapes the reality perceived by millions of people.

They already do that. They're just doing so with a bit of morality instead of hoping that unmonitored algorithms will lead to the best outcomes for society.

> these corporations are not authorities and should not be gatekeeping information.

Information is relative. Google's mission statement is "organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful". So which is more in line with that mission: providing a platform for lies, or curating correct information?

Is "up is down" information? Or is it something else? I don't think lies (or perhaps less aggressively, falsehoods) are "information", they're something else. If the doctors are correct (they aren't, but assuming they were), they'd have evidence they could share and that actual experts would agree with. Then the expert consensus would change.

Either that or you think there's a worldwide conspiracy to keep us in our homes, hurting the economy and millions, or even billions, so that...as far as I can tell, the best guess is so that governments can replace the batteries in the birds. There's nothing for the WHO or CDC to gain by suppressing these guys. There's nothing for Google to gain by suppressing these guys. And yet, they do because it's morally right to keep people safe from disinformation.

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