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Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

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Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#61

What do you read in English? I would suggest that achieving deep fluency in a language requires experience with the greatest and formative literature of that language.

The English language is changing. Nobody speaks like Charles Dickens, John Buchan or Emily Bronte. Even TV shows from the 1970s are wildly out of date.

This assumes several things, all of which I believe are wrong:

1. it assumes that the references to the writings of Charles Dickens, Emily Bronte, William Blake etc. etc. do not litter the linguistic landscape and that people could not improve their understanding of the language by picking up on those references (John Buchan maybe not so much)

2. that there are not levels of usage of the language where these references are required (which I called deep fluency), one can certainly be fluent and argue points, but not know how to adequately poke fun at Alan Simpson's quote of "Who steals my purse, steals trash" without some familiarity of Iago.

3. Finally it assumes that there will never be any conversation or situation in which there will be people familiar with these references, and that they would do anything like sprinkle those references throughout their speech, as a sort of intellectual spice. Widely read people may often do this and, as like seeks like, their acquaintances are probably widely read as well, so it can be helpful to know what these people are talking about.

If you cannot recognize the reference, you cannot respond in kind.

At any rate I thought it a truth universally acknowledged that some phrasings don't go out of style, and must be in want of insertion into any discussion they could possibly fit.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#62
post #3

My biggest struggle is to sound like native due to lack of daily practice with native speakers. There is not enough resources on this one while there are plenty of resources for beginners / intermediate levels. In my native language, I can comfortably phrase one sentence in multiple ways, make it sound casual or less casual, while in English, I think I don't know enough about making myself sound casual.

Sounding "native" whether it's General American English or something else, is often a long path for a "foreigner".

The easiest start is to find a good accent reduction and pronunciation coach to have the initial assessment and understand your unique path.

Unfortunately one often finds that even the basic vowels you think you had nailed down might be "wrong" and have to be corrected in order to have an easily understood and enjoyable articulation.

For a long time I couldn't even hear a difference between IPA [i] and [ɪ]. It took a few weeks to properly recognize and replicate them in English.

Couple of my favorite resources: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-MSYk9R94F3TMuKAnQ7dDg https://www.youtube.com/user/rachelsenglish/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv8YBYZ2s_imUC3H84FwVFQ

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#64
post #33

> The only option I could think of is living in an English speaking country, but that currently not an option. Speaking from personal experience, I think all this will do is change your speech patterns and modulate your accent ever so slightly. You likely read/write English better than a native English speaker already. Some of the language/grammar I've encountered from my English colleagues in both formal and informa…

> You likely read/write English better than a native English speaker already. Kinda by definition this can't be correct. English is defined by what the native speakers speak. It might be that sometimes how they say things doesn't match up to how you were taught was correct, but it is likely to be correct for their dialect.

Written English—especially the formal register—is a different language than the spoken English of a native speaker.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#65
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You likely read/write English better than a native English speaker already. Kinda by definition this can't be correct. English is defined by what the native speakers speak. It might be that sometimes how they say things doesn't match up to how you were taught was correct, but it is likely to be correct for their dialect.

>> English is defined by what the native speakers speak. What about regional accents? For a non native speaker of English, understanding English as spoken in Scotland is a challenge. And I heard people born in UK complaining they had sometimes difficulties with American English (for example with real life/social things). This without speaking of people from India who speak an English which is slightly different from…

>understanding English as spoken in Scotland is a challenge.

Interesting tangent that I somewhat recently was made aware of; some of what they speak maybe isn't English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#66
Everything that is worth knowing was written in English or has been translated to it. Well, not quite, but it's a good rule of thumb. So, immerse yourself in books written in English. Get audiobooks if you can. If you go far enough, you will be exposed to new concepts and ideas in English first, before they percolate to your native language. After a time, you will find yourself struggling to put into your mother tongue concepts which are, for you, effortless in English.

English is a beautiful language, because it lets you reach people. Honor it by always doing your very best when writing and speaking it. Pay attention to your pronunciation, and challenge yourself by writing more, if you can, and editing and sharing your work.

Other than that, perfect native pitch is over-rated, and it may take away confidence dearly needed to talk and practice more.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#67
post #66

Everything that is worth knowing was written in English or has been translated to it. Well, not quite, but it's a good rule of thumb. So, immerse yourself in books written in English. Get audiobooks if you can. If you go far enough, you will be exposed to new concepts and ideas in English first, before they percolate to your native language. After a time, you will find yourself struggling to put into your mother tong…

>Everything that is with knowing was written in English or has been translated to it.

Noam Chomsky must have believed this too; when he was prince of linguistics he considered trying to save or document dying languages a waste of time and unfashionable.

It effectively resulted in a language genocide.

It's hubris to think English will contain all of the answers.

There was a really engaging interview with Wade Davis on CBC about this: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/saving-the-planet-means-liste...

Forgive the tangent.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#68
post #66

Everything that is worth knowing was written in English or has been translated to it. Well, not quite, but it's a good rule of thumb. So, immerse yourself in books written in English. Get audiobooks if you can. If you go far enough, you will be exposed to new concepts and ideas in English first, before they percolate to your native language. After a time, you will find yourself struggling to put into your mother tong…

>Everything that is with knowing was written in English or has been translated to it. Noam Chomsky must have believed this too; when he was prince of linguistics he considered trying to save or document dying languages a waste of time and unfashionable. It effectively resulted in a language genocide. It's hubris to think English will contain all of the answers. There was a really engaging interview with Wade Davis on…

> Everything that is with knowing was written in English or has been translated to it.

It's a rule of thumb, a practical rule for life at the same level than buying groceries. I'm well aware that language incarnations form a very esoteric space, worth studying and caring about if you are in the right profession, or have the time and the inclination.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#69

My mother told me that watching TV in English made a big impact on her English fluency. Knowing which preposition to use is sometimes challenging. Prepositions are one of the hardest things to translate. Sometimes, translating it one way gives it a different meaning than you intended and other times it really doesn't but wouldn't be the "common" usage. To give an example, my sister was going on about people translati…

"Vol de mort" can also mean "Theft of death", as "vol" is both "flight" and "theft" in French. Now you have another problem.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#70
A lot of the advice given is good, but I would like to add something I did not see: you can only be really fluent at a language you practice daily. I speak three foreign languages fluently, and speak two of them daily (English and German). I barely speak my mother tongue (French) with anyone else than my 3 and 1 yo. I am not really fluent at my mother tongue anymore, and my family often makes fun of how I speak, which is often a straight translation from English or German (and I apparently also have a German accent), with lots of pauses to search my words. Of course, one week in a French speaking environment and fluency is back.

What I want to say with it is: do not worry too much. Read, listen and speak English with natives, and you will keep a decent enough level to gain real fluency any time you get immersed in an English speaking environment.

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