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Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

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Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#41
@OP Listen to me very carefully, because what you're going to read here might significantly not only improve your skills but also make the whole process of learning languages far more simpler than what most people (incorrectly) apply.

There's a branch of linguistics called "applied linguistics". Within it the people studying it learn how to - and this part is crucial - teach a person of a given nationality a foreign language of choice using proven, mostly effective methods. As you see, the AL process is going to look like differently for an Italian leaning Spanish and an American learning Polish. This is why the person that can guide you, a teacher, must be of your native nationality. It takes on average 2,5-3,5 years of not that hard work to make a person speaking let's say English into someone who's impossible to distinguish from native speakers. I've seen the results myself, and I was glazing my eyes!

Instead of looking for a regular teacher take the one that's been studying applied linguistics instead. Those people aren't much more expensive. You need a guidance of that kind because someone knowledgeable must tell you what you, specifically, do wrong. Having that knowledge and reasonable tools to address your challenges you're going to love what you can get from the learning process.

I'm the best example :) My teacher told me after 2 years that I'm the most untalented, lazy, not motivated enough, stubborn person she's ever seen in her life. Plus that the fact that she made me who I am today is her greatest success ;) Kudos to her - I'm doing pretty fine with English (being Polish). Moreover, I know what I don't know, so now I can work on my own. You can't put a price on that.

Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#42
post #27
post #3

My biggest struggle is to sound like native due to lack of daily practice with native speakers. There is not enough resources on this one while there are plenty of resources for beginners / intermediate levels. In my native language, I can comfortably phrase one sentence in multiple ways, make it sound casual or less casual, while in English, I think I don't know enough about making myself sound casual.

I wouldn't prioritize so much sounding as a native speaker unless you fear discrimination that may affect your career or personal life. Under my point of view I view keeping your accent as part of your identity and something that makes you unique.

I totally agree with that too.

You’re unlikely to sound like a native but it’s also not really needed. English is a really mixed up language and we (native speakers) are used to diversity.

There’s actually a huge variations between different regions of the UK let alone native speakers from the rest of the world. So feel confident that it’s OK to retain your own accent as long as it’s not so strong it stops people from understanding you.

If for some reason you did manage to adopt a regional English accent then we’d actually find that quite funny. :D

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#43
Many of already waded in so not sure I can add anything different. However, here I go ;)

I guess for me the main question is, what do you mean by 'fluency?' Do you want to speak/be thought of as someone from an English speaking country? Or is it more a personal feeling that you want to be better?

For someone with an already high-level of English speaking and writing, I think the remaining barrier is more cultural than language. Like can you decipher common codes as someone who lives in the culture of that English-speaking country. And from my experience, a lot of that is broken up into two categories - 1. childhood identifications, things like education system, curriculum; regional, national milestone events, etc.; and 2. pop culture today, things like TV shows, current events, views on social, economics, politics, etc.

I think it's easier for the US case just because how pervasive American soft power is. But in any case, my feeling just from your post is that it's perhaps really more culture rather than language that you want to focus on.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#44
I live in England and I'm married to a Brit, and I still make hilarious mistakes and cause silly misunderstandings. Would it be better if I wrote or spoke an ice-cold perfect English? I don't think so.

I'm proficient in English and I feel confident speaking. I don't think my accent hurts me in my professional or personal life. On the contrary, I think that it enriches the conversation. I can count with one hand the number of times a bad accent or not knowing a word or expression caused even the slight issue in my life during the last few years.

Going back to the question, it comes from experience. To this day I still hear words that I don't know or want to say expressions that I only know how to say in my mother tongue. In those situations, I give a literal translation and then look for a similar expression in English. You'll find that many times there is an equivalent, but other times such expressions don't really exist in other languages. And that's great! it adds to the richness of knowing more that one language. As a side, if you find yourself in these situations, make very clear to your conversation partners that you want to get corrected when you make a mistake, otherwise some people will keep quiet out of politeness.

Lastly, keep in mind that not all native speakers of a language talk perfectly all the time (far from it!). There is a good chance you already write better than some people by virtue of paying more attention to it. Once you realise that language is about communication and not about getting a perfect grade, it will lift a weight out of your shoulders and allow you to enjoy it more.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#45
post #9

If you'll tolerate nitpicking (EDIT: I don't consider any of this worth pointing out other than nitpicking): Rather than "would sometimes" as "will sometimes". I'd rephrase "current thought" to "thoughts" or "train of thought". I'd rephrase "I’m also aware of my grammar not being perfect." as "I'm also aware that my grammar is not perfect." "but that currently [is] not an option" (presumably a typo).

These are all the things I would have picked out - except I would just drop 'would', not replace with it 'will'. (The verb then becoming 'do', later in the sentence.)

I'd also add that in changing any of those I could easily be proof-reading a native speaker's writing.

With the exception of:

> if you spot out anything

unless it's an AmE idiom or something, to me that's the only think that marks you out as non-native. I'm aware I've said both 'picked out' and 'marks you out', and I have no idea how to explain why this is different, it just sounds weird.

> if you spot anything

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#46
Very fluent!

Little things I would tweak as American speaker

“I’m aware my grammar isn’t perfect”. “But that’s not currently an option”

Also “holiday” is a British English term. If you’re speaking to Americans use “vacation”.

This doesn’t seem to be a problem for you but the biggest area I usually see is verb tense, and singular / plural. “I want two watermelon” “I asks for the watermelons” “25% is roughly align with what I see” (should be “aligned”, or “roughly aligns” and drop is) “They hasn’t shared the results yet” (should be “haven’t” for plural subject)

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#47

What do you read in English? I would suggest that achieving deep fluency in a language requires experience with the greatest and formative literature of that language.

The English language is changing. Nobody speaks like Charles Dickens, John Buchan or Emily Bronte. Even TV shows from the 1970s are wildly out of date.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#48

Joseph Conrad is considered one the greats of English literature, yet his sentence structure and flow is strongly influenced by his native Polish. Would have he been a better writer if he had worked to eliminate this obvious influence on form? I highly doubt it. At a certain point, you have achieved native fluency. From there, what you do with grammar and flow is up to you- the rules are not cast in stone. Borrow wha…

Really great reply, thanks for this!

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#49
post #33

> The only option I could think of is living in an English speaking country, but that currently not an option. Speaking from personal experience, I think all this will do is change your speech patterns and modulate your accent ever so slightly. You likely read/write English better than a native English speaker already. Some of the language/grammar I've encountered from my English colleagues in both formal and informa…

> You likely read/write English better than a native English speaker already. Kinda by definition this can't be correct. English is defined by what the native speakers speak. It might be that sometimes how they say things doesn't match up to how you were taught was correct, but it is likely to be correct for their dialect.

Just because a native speaker might have written OP's bit above as "[...] that a native speaker would of said it differently." doesn't make it correct for "their" dialect.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#50
Hi Mantanrubin,

I am an English teacher to foreign students and have a few at your level of fluency. With these students I usually do custom classes using content from literature, poetry and current affairs, mainly to get them using advanced vocabulary and grammar, and then applying it to their own lives so that they can discuss topics in detail in a variety of ways. Making sure to know when to use colourful language, when not to, the perfect phrasal verb or idiom and so on.

One of the other comments in this thread also mentions good fiction (Conrad). I'd second that, as well as adding variety with more modern writers as well as those of the classics. For example, a book like Satchmo (story of Louis Armstrong's life written in his own vernacular - it's brilliant) is as useful to your advancement of English fluency as is Conrad, Wharton, Louis Stevenson. The thing to note with the classics is to find one or two you really enjoy (I don't particularly enjoy Austin but I love others).

Additionally to literature you could read scientific material, listen to and interpret hip hop and explain it to someone else, try to write poetry, speak with young native speakers, speak with older native speakers and so on.

If you'd like to do a class any time you can also contact me if you'd like. My vety basic website is teacherross dot com.

Good luck and keep going.

Ross.

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