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Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

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Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#31
Firstly, your English is indeed very good - for a second language, that's awesome. Well done!

Secondly, I'm in a similar position to you with German. I have two advantages over you:

1. I lived and worked in Germany for several years; 2. I am married to a German.

That said, there are a few things that I try to do to improve. Not sure if they're relevant to you, but take what you can from them.

1. I ask lots of technical questions. I enjoy languages and try to get to the root of both my own language and others, and to find the connections between them. I talk about German grammar and idiom to my wife to the point of tedium.

2. I listen to lots of podcasts by people from different regions with different dialects.

3. I try to read some older German texts, to get a feel for how the language has evolved over the last few hundred years.

Honestly though, you're getting to a level of proficiency that is quite rarefied for a non-native speaker, so returns will naturally diminish.

One final thought:

> spot out

is not good English idiom. "Spot" would suffice. :-)

Good on you for making such an effort, mate. Best of luck.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#32
I was born in one, lived long in a second and now am home in a third country.

In all three languages I feel confident, can tell jokes, understand and have tested level C2 (https://www.efset.org/cefr/).

Still, every once in a while, I "have this feeling" my proficiency is subpar. Still I learn new expressions and grammar twists that I was now aware about before.

What helps me getting more certain and better in the word craft of the local language is asking locals to correct me and ask them to explain words and constructs that seem strange or unknown to me.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#33

> The only option I could think of is living in an English speaking country, but that currently not an option. Speaking from personal experience, I think all this will do is change your speech patterns and modulate your accent ever so slightly. You likely read/write English better than a native English speaker already. Some of the language/grammar I've encountered from my English colleagues in both formal and informa…

> You likely read/write English better than a native English speaker already.

Kinda by definition this can't be correct. English is defined by what the native speakers speak. It might be that sometimes how they say things doesn't match up to how you were taught was correct, but it is likely to be correct for their dialect.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#34
My mother told me that watching TV in English made a big impact on her English fluency.

Knowing which preposition to use is sometimes challenging.

Prepositions are one of the hardest things to translate. Sometimes, translating it one way gives it a different meaning than you intended and other times it really doesn't but wouldn't be the "common" usage.

To give an example, my sister was going on about people translating stuff in the Harry Potter books, looking for hidden meanings, and she told me Voldemort was French for "flight of death" and I told her "No, de can also be translated as from. I would translate that flight from death."

Flight of death is nonsense in English. It doesn't make sense. Flight from death has a completely different meaning and makes perfect sense -- Lord Voldemort was trying to get out of dying. He was trying to escape his own death. He was fleeing from death.

But if you are talking about someone's hometown, saying "Doreen, from Columbus" or "Doreen, of Columbus" means the same thing and most people wouldn't misunderstand it. De in French is often used that way as well and it more or less doesn't matter which of the two English prepositions you use.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#35
> I’ve been reading, writing and speaking English

Error! Missing oxford comma! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma

In all seriousness, your post reads better than most native speakers.

If you're writing something formal, and you're unsure if something is technically correct, find a style guide you agree with and consult it. The journalistic styles are intended to be clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Stylebook

There are many style guides: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_guide#United_States

When I'm struggling with a sentence, I make sort of a mental graph of the sentence and apply rules (usually around commas, and mostly without thinking, it just happens). I think it's because I was trained as a kid with these diagrams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_diagram

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_usage_controversies is a useful list. Most speakers are bad at one or more of these. I was never able to train myself to pick out a split infinitve, for example, but I would be able to if I were better educated.

Also, Grammarly is an AI thing that's supposed to detect and correct, but I haven't used it. It's quite popular with the kids these days, so they'll probably be dictating what "english" is if they get big enough: https://www.grammarly.com/

You might also not want to speak perfect English. Most Americans certainly don't. What I mean is, is that a "double copula" is technically "wrong", but it does convey extra information and give a cadence and a degree of informality. English has lots of little choices like that.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#36
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

also urban dictionary contains a lot of obviously joke definitions where you need to already know the word to see it is not the actual meaning.

You don’t need to know the actual meaning, but you do need the context in which it appears. If your coworker puts a new acronym in a code comment it’s likely not a vulgar definition, for example.

Yes, but then it is something like reading those list of acronyms definitions where LOL somehow means "hail Satan" (urban dictionary often is quite good, but in the context of the question this can be a serious problem). I would recommend it more for refreshing old memories rather than for learning.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#37
post #27
post #3

My biggest struggle is to sound like native due to lack of daily practice with native speakers. There is not enough resources on this one while there are plenty of resources for beginners / intermediate levels. In my native language, I can comfortably phrase one sentence in multiple ways, make it sound casual or less casual, while in English, I think I don't know enough about making myself sound casual.

I wouldn't prioritize so much sounding as a native speaker unless you fear discrimination that may affect your career or personal life. Under my point of view I view keeping your accent as part of your identity and something that makes you unique.

I used to appreciate to hear this actually. However, now I'm a father who needs to teach his son speaking, and I feel that I'm not good enough.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#38
The answer to your question really depends on what you need it for. Technical or content writing? Work communication? Deeper conversations in your personal life?

I think the most broadly applicable answer is to read the most famous English stylists such as Gibbon, Carlyle, Arnold, or novelists like Austen, Eliot, Henry James, etc. This writing is complex and sophisticated enough to be challenging even to native speakers, but the vocabulary is still almost totally congruent with modern English.

However, since you're posting on HN, I suspect you'd like a response from a more technical perspective, in which case my answer is: read and write open source documentation! Writing good docs requires complete understanding of the terminology and concepts involved, as well as compositional skill and precision. It's a great exercise which will improve your English, as well as your understanding of the code you're writing about - and as a bonus you're giving something back while you learn.

Re: Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further?

#40
> I’m also aware of my grammar not being perfect.

As a native English speaker is this funny since English grammar is a bit fluid.

> Knowing which preposition to use is sometimes challenging.

True that. Also adjective order.

My suggestion is read and watch popular English fiction. I say that because I'm dubious that your English is technically deficient. More likely has to do with the intersection of culture and language. As in when and how to shift from formal to informal depending on situation. Also remember the English speaking world itself is fragmented. For instance I can often tell where someone grew up in the Bay Area by their speaking style.

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