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YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

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Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#171
post #8

Elon Musk appears to like what they said as well: https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/12544950502282608...

Elon’s response since the beginning has been way off, “The coronavirus panic is dumb” (March 6). I guess he doesn’t want to learn from his mistakes. It’s somewhat incredible to see how the “just the flu” crowd doubled down on their views despite the failure of containment in NYC (and high death tolls overseas in the UK and elsewhere) making it clear how many more people would have died if their plan of just letting t…

Calling COVID-19 "just the flu" is certainly wrong, but it's still fair to draw comparisons between the two. The latest projected death estimate for the US is 60-80k, down from an original estimate of 100-240k. We're about a week past the peak death rate and the total death count is approaching 60k, so the revised estimate was likely too optimistic probably closer to 100k is more realistic. By comparison 80k people died of the flu last winter in the US (last winter was higher than the average flu season, average is apparently closer to 40-60k). 600k die annually of cancer, on average, as another point of comparison.

Even if the current estimate is undercounting by half, COVID-19 will still have killed 2x as many people as last flu season. It's inherently speculative to compare against the death toll of what would have happened without a total economic shutdown. Figures ranging from 1-2 million have been tossed around here on HN. NPR ran a story with a claim of 1.3 million. However the experiences of countries that did not adopt distancing restrictions or adopted much less drastic ones, including denser and more populated ones like Japan, are not seeing anything close to these death rates. We'll be able to glean better information once testing becomes more widespread and comparisons can be made more reliably, but the 10-20x increase in deaths without social distancing that was initially claimed doesn't seem to be happening.

It's not "just the flu", its "just 3-4x deadlier than the flu, and spreads twice as fast". How scared are people of the flu? How scared are people of COVID-19? The latter is way more than 3 to 4 times larger than the former. If you asked people in 2019 "If we sacrifice 25% of the economy and make 25 million people unemployed, then we can stop a virus that will probably kill ~4x as many people as the last flu season[1]. Should we do it?" How many people would say yes? Probably not very many.

Phrase the same question differently: "If we sacrifice 25% of the economy and make 25 million people unemployed, then we can halve cancer deaths for this year. Should we do it?" Again, people would balk at this.

This is why the coronavirus panic is dumb in a lot of people's views. People are experiencing fear that is orders of magnitude off from the actual threat. Much in the same vein that people fear shark attacks when they are incredibly rare.

1. This is assuming a death toll of a quarter million, all of which are prevented in this scenario by economic shutdown. In reality, we'd only be saving the delta between the deaths with the shutdown and without.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that misses the point. The very fact that a few people at Google/Youtube have the power to censor whomever they want for whatever reason they choose is a problem in itself. Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? I think what they said in the video was eminently reasonable. But perhaps I'm wrong. Luckily we have the freedom to publicly critique their claims - assuming our critiques a…

> Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? Yes, they are. https://www.dailynews.com/2020/04/28/california-doctors-with... > But public health experts were quick to debunk the doctors’ findings as misguided and riddled with statistical errors — and an example of the kind of misleading information they are forced to waste precious time disputing. > The doctors should never have assumed that…

I don't understand what's wrong with the data they presented. That article doesn't explain it, it just says it's wrong. There applications of data make perfect sense to me, that's how I'd use the data they presented.

That article makes inaccurate statements like, "basically hyped a bunch of data and weren’t transparent about their methods" which is not true. There were 100% transparent about where there information was from and how they were presenting it.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#173

It's literally terrifying that they removed this video. Someone uploaded a copy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25m0fm2LSIg

They said they're culling misinformation and they're doing it. I don't see what's terrifying about this. Maybe unsettling if you're aggressively pro-free speech, but 'terrifying' is very hyperbolic.

Before WHO was saying there's no human to human transmission and masks don't help. So anyone who created a video opposing that would get their video taken down.

Later, WHO started claiming the exact opposite. Now anyone who created a video previously will also get taken down.

How exactly do you propose deciding what's misinformation and what's not?

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#174

> We're actually seeing the patients. Dr. Fauci hasn't seen a patient for 20 years... it's like the general contractor vs the sub. He's not seeing patients, he's in an ivory tower, and we have a world of respect for him, he's a world reknown immunologist, two different, he's an academic, and we've dealt with academics all of our lives... but academics and reality are two different things. > Coronavirus lasts on plast…

Let's look at the death rates, no it's not. They're similar in prevalence and in death rate.

That statement alone is justification for removing their video as a public health hazard.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#175

This is lazy reporting. It's not wrong, but there's no insight here. No critical assessment of the claims made in the video nor the Youtube T&C, just a few clickbaity excerpts and some reaction comments. Compare with this excellent piece by the CBC on a somewhat similar viral video in Canada: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/u-of-r-biology-p...

But that misses the point. The very fact that a few people at Google/Youtube have the power to censor whomever they want for whatever reason they choose is a problem in itself. Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? I think what they said in the video was eminently reasonable. But perhaps I'm wrong. Luckily we have the freedom to publicly critique their claims - assuming our critiques a…

There have been several lawsuits about this over the past few years and they always fail. Google is a commercial company and not a public institution. There are no first amendment protections here and they can remove any content they wish. The commonality of the platform does not make it a public institution. If that bothers you then boycott them.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#176

This is lazy reporting. It's not wrong, but there's no insight here. No critical assessment of the claims made in the video nor the Youtube T&C, just a few clickbaity excerpts and some reaction comments. Compare with this excellent piece by the CBC on a somewhat similar viral video in Canada: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/u-of-r-biology-p...

Can someone address the claim that death certificates coerce doctors to list COVID as the cause of death even if it hasn't been shown definitively to be the case? Is this a thing?

Might be something related to this:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fac...

Also the number of deaths being reported in US includes "probable deaths" which are not confirmed COVID cases. It's even more than the actual confirmed cases.

Look at the graph on the last page for NYC for example:

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-d...

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#177
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you react to your own ideas being censored? YouTube here has decided what the “correct” messaging is for the many based on the decisions of a few. Is there no room for dissenting opinion? Perhaps more dangerous are the people who now are firmly convinced the lockdown should be over simply because the video was taken down. When is the proper approach to discuss and counter instead of suppress?

I'm not super familiar with YouTube's policy on this, but apparently they decided to curb what they deem to be COVID-19 misinformation. I completely agree that what these two are doing is spreading misinformation, this is not anywhere in the range of a seasonal flu, the numbers are clear on that. It's very naive to think that what these two are doing is a good faith attempt to present a dissenting opinion. If someone…

And what happens when you yell fire in a movie theater and they silence you when it's true? It's not just about the "incorrect" content that's posted on Youtube, it's also the correct content that gets censored. How else would we learn about the water that makes the frogs gay?

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#178
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? Yes, they are. https://www.dailynews.com/2020/04/28/california-doctors-with... > But public health experts were quick to debunk the doctors’ findings as misguided and riddled with statistical errors — and an example of the kind of misleading information they are forced to waste precious time disputing. > The doctors should never have assumed that…

I don't understand what's wrong with the data they presented. That article doesn't explain it, it just says it's wrong. There applications of data make perfect sense to me, that's how I'd use the data they presented. That article makes inaccurate statements like, "basically hyped a bunch of data and weren’t transparent about their methods" which is not true. There were 100% transparent about where there information w…

> I don't understand what's wrong with the data they presented.

They took stats from a massively self-selecting population - people seeking out COVID-19 testing at their facilities - and extrapolated to the general public.

That's inexcusably dumb.

As the bit I quoted states, that's like "estimating the average height of Americans from the players on an NBA court".

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#179

This is lazy reporting. It's not wrong, but there's no insight here. No critical assessment of the claims made in the video nor the Youtube T&C, just a few clickbaity excerpts and some reaction comments. Compare with this excellent piece by the CBC on a somewhat similar viral video in Canada: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/u-of-r-biology-p...

But that misses the point. The very fact that a few people at Google/Youtube have the power to censor whomever they want for whatever reason they choose is a problem in itself. Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? I think what they said in the video was eminently reasonable. But perhaps I'm wrong. Luckily we have the freedom to publicly critique their claims - assuming our critiques a…

In other news fox news is censoring anyone who does not agree with their Conservative narrative.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#180

This is lazy reporting. It's not wrong, but there's no insight here. No critical assessment of the claims made in the video nor the Youtube T&C, just a few clickbaity excerpts and some reaction comments. Compare with this excellent piece by the CBC on a somewhat similar viral video in Canada: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/u-of-r-biology-p...

But that misses the point. The very fact that a few people at Google/Youtube have the power to censor whomever they want for whatever reason they choose is a problem in itself. Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? I think what they said in the video was eminently reasonable. But perhaps I'm wrong. Luckily we have the freedom to publicly critique their claims - assuming our critiques a…

Ignoring the context here, YT has every right to choose what to display, and what not to.

In context: they don’t want to be responsible for harm to others and they certainly don’t want to pay to broadcast that content.

If people really want to spew nonsense they can pay to do it themselves. No one is stopping them.

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