The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case • Hacker News Board

Re: The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case

#21

Post by giancarlostoro » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 11:05 PM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #10

Why can't these news articles link to the briefs or provide a case number or anything? They didn't even say what freakin' court they were in directly! I know it's the 9th circuit based on the description, but where was the original case heard? Arg! Edit: Fortunatly the 9th circuit is actually pretty good with youtube, which made this easy to find: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6SeGJQjqyA 19-15472 ACLU Foundation v…

It doesnt seize to amaze me why news orgs dont provide sources in addition to claiming another org claimed it first. In the hype about trying to be real news maybe you should take it much more seriously. I can prolly find independent researchers who arent part of huge news orgs who do link to sources.

Re: The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case

#22

Post by dexen » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 11:15 PM UTC

ggggtez wrote: post #13

duncan_bayne wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that we have proof, at least as far as the US Government is concerned. Snowden provided us with proof in abundance that they will "find a way". How anyone can consider this a gray area in 2020 is beyond me.

This comment thread really is nonsense. So Facebook and the government are secretly working together in a conspiracy to falsify court records while secretly they cooporate the whole time and the case was never actually tried? What planet are you on? And the proof is Snowden, because... ??? Or are you all just agreeing you have your own conspiracy theories, and aren't directly commenting on what each other are saying?

>secretly working together in a conspiracy to falsify court records

A simple & plausible scenario: a governmental agency requests Facebook conducts a broad surveillance sweep. Facebook resists for obvious reasons, goes to court. Somebody at the middle level of one talks to somebody at the middle level of the other, figure out what the agency really wants - a small, well specified chunk of data - which gets requested separately & promptly delivered. Having gotten enough data now, the agency lets the original, big case falter simply by limiting the efforts and expenditures.

That's not even conspiracy, that's just a bunch of people figuring out how to quickly get done with their mundane responsibilities. #BanalityOfEvil

Re: The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case

#23

Post by wahern » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

topkai22 wrote: post #12

som33 wrote: post #5

Because you live in a lawless oligarchy that has been rubber stamping the rich's laws for 2 straight centuries. See the endless extension of copyright. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act#/...

Interesting choice since the extension of copyright ended in 2019 and works have started entering the public domain again.

Copyright for pre-1972 recordings was effectively extended in 2018 an additional 25 years, depending on your state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Modernization_Act#Title_...

State-based copyright for recordings in California, for example, was 70 years. The extension of federal copyright to cover pre-1972 recordings ensures a 95-year duration--longer for some earlier works.

Re: The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case

#24

Post by duncan_bayne » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

ggggtez wrote: post #13

duncan_bayne wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that we have proof, at least as far as the US Government is concerned. Snowden provided us with proof in abundance that they will "find a way". How anyone can consider this a gray area in 2020 is beyond me.

This comment thread really is nonsense. So Facebook and the government are secretly working together in a conspiracy to falsify court records while secretly they cooporate the whole time and the case was never actually tried? What planet are you on? And the proof is Snowden, because... ??? Or are you all just agreeing you have your own conspiracy theories, and aren't directly commenting on what each other are saying?

> So Facebook and the government are secretly working together in a conspiracy to falsify court records while secretly they cooporate the whole time and the case was never actually tried? What planet are you on?

That's, ummm, not my point at all, and I honestly don't see how you took it from what I wrote.

What I meant was just that Snowden's revelations revealed a bunch of 'alternative' methods, beyond a court-ordered wiretap. Collusion, cable tapping, shipping intercepts ... all seem to have been on the table for the NSA and GCHQ.

My point was just that I'd be very surprised if this court result prevented the type of interception that was being requested.

Re: The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case

#25

Post by rmrfstar » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 11:43 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #19

som33 wrote: post #5

Because you live in a lawless oligarchy that has been rubber stamping the rich's laws for 2 straight centuries. See the endless extension of copyright. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act#/...

" Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23012844 .

This isn't necessarily an unrelated controversy.

Excessive record sealing, secret legal opinions, pay-walled public records, and the fact that Federal courts are only available to large businesses while the rest of us are forced into arbitration, are all closely related issues.

There is a good faith argument that copyright term extensions are but another example of the common thread connecting those issues.

Re: The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case

#26

Post by downerending » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 11:52 PM UTC

Rant time: Is it really impossible to write a literate, coherent headline? No, the ACLU does not want to know why. They want to know how. It's literally the second sentence of the article. FFS.

> Now the American Civil Liberties Union is seeking to find out how.

Re: The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case

#27

Post by viklove » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 12:01 AM UTC

rmrfstar wrote: post #25

dang wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23012844 .

This isn't necessarily an unrelated controversy. Excessive record sealing, secret legal opinions, pay-walled public records, and the fact that Federal courts are only available to large businesses while the rest of us are forced into arbitration, are all closely related issues. There is a good faith argument that copyright term extensions are but another example of the common thread connecting those issues.

No reasonable person would say som33's comment was an "unrelated controversy," it's a clear response to the question "Why was a case involving a wealthy corporation sealed?" The way HN is moderated does not welcome this line of questioning, though. You're not allowed to suggest that VC-funded tech might be a source of evil or bad ethics.

Proof? Here's a similar "flame-baity" comment under this topic that sits on the other side of the argument, but dang doesn't care enough to respond or detach it from its parent: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=23013083&goto=item%3Fi...

Re: The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case

#28

Post by jauer » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 12:17 AM UTC

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #2

My conspiracy theory hat comes out every time a large US company seems to stand up against the government for the privacy of their users and wins. I always assume the company secretly gave the government what they asked for, and the government agreed to play along for marketing purposes. I suppose that the boring truth is that Facebook just used it's vast financial resources to protect itself in a way that lavabit ne…

> I suppose that the boring truth is that Facebook just used it's vast financial resources to protect itself in a way that lavabit never could

This is the accurate take :)

Facebook, like Google, was very unhappy about the wholesale tapping of cables revealed in the Snowden docs and rapidly moved to encrypt all the things formerly assumed safe/inscrutable.

If you give an inch to a government you then have to deal with every other government wanting their inch too. The easiest way to deal with this is to vigorously fight every request from a government.

You can't do a secret backdoor that bypasses this because it will get discovered eventually and then same problem occurs.

Re: The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case

#29

Post by bbsanon » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 12:49 AM UTC

Do Facebook and others use pre-quantum encryption? Is it reasonable to say that if and when the NSA (presumably doing full take of these comms) has a quantum computer capable of performing Shor’s algorithm, that they will be able to decrypt all of these comms?

When would FB and others move to quantum-resistant encryption if they aren’t already?

What is the possibility that radically advanced tech including quantum computers well beyond what’s currently available already exists in secret?

Anyone a fan of Dave Brubeck/take five?

Re: The ACLU wants to know why Facebook beat a 2018 wiretap case

#30

Post by qvrjuec » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 1:07 AM UTC

bbsanon wrote: post #29

Do Facebook and others use pre-quantum encryption? Is it reasonable to say that if and when the NSA (presumably doing full take of these comms) has a quantum computer capable of performing Shor’s algorithm, that they will be able to decrypt all of these comms? When would FB and others move to quantum-resistant encryption if they aren’t already? What is the possibility that radically advanced tech including quantum co…

Addressing your second to last question, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, though the more likely solution for the government is throwing money at compute power to break encryption which is reasonably secure if millions of dollars isn't thrown at it.

I love Dave Brubeck/Take Five, check this out: https://soundcloud.com/juanchov182/radiohead-fivestep