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Are you living in a computer simulation? [pdf]

simulation-argument.com

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Re: Are you living in a computer simulation? [pdf]

#11
In order to make the simulation hypothesis remotely believable, you have to assume a dozen premises which are nonstarters. In particular:

>Simulating the entire universe down to the quantum level is obviously infeasible, unless radically new physics is discovered. But in order to get a realistic simulation of human experience, much less is needed

I'm glad Bostrom says simulating the universe is infeasible (most people loosely following his argument ignore this), but I'm not convinced that simulating an infinitesimal portion of the universe is sufficient. Rewinding the simulation whenever one of the billions of simulated humans gets skeptical while doing science sounds absurd and kind of defeats the purpose of a simulation, no? In general, I don't think you can ad-hoc "fill in the details" of a particular piece of a simulation and have it make sense because you weren't simulating the inputs in that much detail.

I wrote quite a bit more here: http://jere.in/the-simulation-hypothesis-is-nonsense

Re: Are you living in a computer simulation? [pdf]

#12
post #4

Since the term computer and its usability has been known recently (few hundred years, it seems fair. What about before this "computers" ? Universe cannot be run in computer-simulation if the term is not known before that. Later if something else comes up, we might believe, its "that" technology

Check out - Allegory of the cave. You don’t need computers.

Re: Are you living in a computer simulation? [pdf]

#14

I remain unconvinced. On some level the logic is sound. On the other hand, reminds me of the arguments by Saint Augustine and other philosophers "proving" the existence of God. Centuries later, we look back at these arguments as cute, naive attempts that probably sounded very clever at the time. I feel like we'll look back at these "we're living in a simulation" proofs the same way.

The argument isn't attempting to convince you we are in a simulation, it's rather laying out the only three possible outcomes:

1. Simulations cannot be built: simulations are impossible, advanced civilizations go extinct before they're built, etc.

2. Simulations will not be built: future humans have no interest in ancestor simulations, they have ethical qualms against doing so, etc.

3. We are almost certainly in a simulation: the number of simulated people far outnumber the number of non-simulated people, so you are likely a simulation.

You simply can't be unconvinced by this argument.

Re: Are you living in a computer simulation? [pdf]

#15
Bostrom's logic is so laughably bad, but it's worth refuting clearly.

To tackle point (1), note that Bostrom assumes a Doomsday argument [0] and that there are both pre-human and post-human modes of life which are qualitatively different from ours. But it assumes that the structure of the Universe is relatively constant, and that is not the case. For example, we live in a time when galaxies are clearly visible in the night sky; were we to have been born much sooner or later, we wouldn't know about galaxies, and we might further be fooled into thinking that the Milky Way is unique or special.

Point (3) is really the one that Bostrom wants for us to conclude as true, but it's completely inaccessible and unfalsifiable. Just like Christopher Columbus could never sail to the Garden of Earthly Delights, it's not possible for us to falsify the proposition that we live in a simulation, whether it be a Spinozan world, a Great Programmer world, or whatever quasireligious interpretation one might want to use.

We can now freely embrace (2). We run plenty of simulations of pre-human life. One might object that we do not model all of the details of the inner experiences of such life, but of course there is no evidence for such inner experiences and we can ignore them entirely [2].

There's other critiques of this argument. They usually boil down to some sort of post-selection [1]: Bostrom first post-selects to insist that there will inevitably civilizations which could plausibly simulate us, and then uses the post-selection to lock us into already being simulated.

And, of course, there's a final argument from the outside: This would have all been just as true in the 1600s as it would be today, were the argument to be rock-solid. But then, computers would not have existed in the societies of the 1600s, so the argument would have to be prefaced by an introduction which doesn't just wax poetic about how tiny future computers would be, but also explains computation, quantum mechanics, black holes, etc. However, in the 1600s, Spinoza [3] was able to put forth the argument that we are all simulated by the mind of God, and his deductions and rules were not much different from Bostrom's. Spinoza and Bostrom seem to have the same conceptualization of the Universe, and are following the arguments that they think will lead them there best. But those arguments are hopelessly and obviously covered in the technology and ideas of the time. Therefore, if there is a way in which we are simulated, then the actual argument which proves it will have to come with a massive introduction which justifies it, not just by using our current words and ideas, but by introducing some sort of 25th-century mathematics and physics.

Oh, but wait, why would simulations become possible arbitrarily in the 25th century? We can iterate, and imagine that the hypothetical civilization which simulates us is indefinitely far in the future. When we predict this far into the future, not only do our models break down, but our ability to model breaks down. Bostrom far overshoots with this argument!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_argument

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postselection

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza

Re: Are you living in a computer simulation? [pdf]

#16
This paper is better than most that argue for simulation. Usually the argument is "of course advanced beings will run simulations if they can". Those papers just assume that, and then use that assumption to reach the conclusion that we are probably living in a simulation. This paper at least recognizes the possibility that advanced species will not do that.

Re: Are you living in a computer simulation? [pdf]

#17
post #11

In order to make the simulation hypothesis remotely believable, you have to assume a dozen premises which are nonstarters. In particular: >Simulating the entire universe down to the quantum level is obviously infeasible, unless radically new physics is discovered. But in order to get a realistic simulation of human experience, much less is needed I'm glad Bostrom says simulating the universe is infeasible (most peopl…

Indeed, the Free Will Theorem of quantum mechanics makes short work of Bostrom's hope that it would be possible to just rewind the Universe and get the desired outcome, as if creating a tool-assisted speedrun.

Edit: Imagine that you are simulating a qubit. You want the qubit to behave a certain way, but it refuses to do what you want. You try rewinding it over and over with your magic time-rewinder, but it still refuses to give you the measurement that you expect. That's the Free Will Theorem.

Now imagine that you're simulating a human. You want the human to behave a certain way...

Re: Are you living in a computer simulation? [pdf]

#18
post #4

Since the term computer and its usability has been known recently (few hundred years, it seems fair. What about before this "computers" ? Universe cannot be run in computer-simulation if the term is not known before that. Later if something else comes up, we might believe, its "that" technology

What's next in the series: verbal narrative, hand-written text, manual printing press, industrial printing press, mechanical tabulation, punched card computing, Von Neumann computing, distributed public computing, ?

Secure distributed computing, agoric computing, room-temperature qubits, epigenetic programming, swarm computing, civil rights for DAOs, astrophysical electronics, Gödel machines, emulated humans, civil rights for machines, uplifting, civil rights for sapients.

Re: Are you living in a computer simulation? [pdf]

#19
I remember reading a webcomic where one protagonist brought this point forward, concluding that most worlds are simulated and thus we live in a simulation. The other protagonist was super annoyed and replied sarcastically that the other person made a point, most points are false, and thus their point was bullshit.

I thought it was xkcd but can't find it. Anyone know which webcomic it was?

Re: Are you living in a computer simulation? [pdf]

#20
post #11

In order to make the simulation hypothesis remotely believable, you have to assume a dozen premises which are nonstarters. In particular: >Simulating the entire universe down to the quantum level is obviously infeasible, unless radically new physics is discovered. But in order to get a realistic simulation of human experience, much less is needed I'm glad Bostrom says simulating the universe is infeasible (most peopl…

> In general, I don't think you can ad-hoc "fill in the details" of a particular piece of a simulation and have it make sense because you weren't simulating the inputs in that much detail.

It's well documented that the human brain ignores or fills in inputs for things that mostly match its expectations. You're already ignoring vast swaths of your sensory input at this very moment by focusing on this text.

A simulation of a world of minds, rather than a simulation of its physics, would be many orders of magnitude more feasible because the simulation itself would have knowledge of each mind's sensory input. Therefore, it would know exactly how much fidelity it needed at any given moment, and where.

Furthermore, such an advanced simulation would have knowledge of what its simulated objects are, rather than the constitution of their matter requiring a simulation of its physics. This merely requires a simulation of the interface with the outputs having the right kind of noise. You wave this away via some absurd "sensory deprivation" remark, but this is explicitly the possibility discussed in the Simulation hypothesis.

Whatever science simulated people do, they simply cannot violate the simulation parameters. Advanced humans with knowledge of what algorithms constitute a human mind would simply need to track the inferences minds make in order to avoid seeing through the simulation.

And I don't find your analysis of Bostrom's argument complete. His argument is airtight:

1. Simulations cannot be built: simulations are impossible, advanced civilizations go extinct before they're built, etc.

2. Simulations will not be built: future humans have no interest in ancestor simulations, they have ethical qualms against doing so, etc.

3. We are almost certainly in a simulation: the number of simulated people far outnumber the number of non-simulated people, so you are likely a simulation.

You simply can't be unconvinced by this argument.

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