Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world? • Hacker News Board

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#161

Post by bbsanon » Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

I am a person who was physically and emotionally abused by peers as a child, who had a horrible, life changing experience on a psychedelic as a minor, and who has tinnitus and hyperacusis as a result of overexposure before 20.

I am now decades older and my life turned out horribly. I have many of the symptoms of PTSD, so it’s reasonable to self diagnose as such. I’m self destructive and suicidal, in constant mental torment, alone and bitter.

I’ve often thought that my life outcome was the result of bad luck, and sensitive genes. Then, at times, I figured this was the result of bad choices. It’s probably a combination of the above. Genetics, environment, luck, and poor decisions all factored into my experiences and how they’ve formed my resultant life.

To ‘tough it out’ is perhaps a great filter for those who are actually tough enough to do so, but some aren’t equipped for this. I’ve often seen my life outcome as indicative of a fundamental weakness in my genes, and there’s truth to this. Others went through similar circumstances and didn’t develop horrible tinnitus nor have a bad reaction to drugs, or childhood abuse. From an evolutionary standpoint, that I haven’t procreated is a success for the species. I will die off alone and the species will be stronger for it. Perhaps in old times this was done more silently.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#162

Post by ithkuil » Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 6:20 PM UTC

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #137

acituan wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about being trauma naive as a society. Having a scientific understanding of trauma is separate from having phenomenological understanding of trauma, and I believe we have a large amount of knowledge and wisdom about the latter. I also believe there is a large repertoire of psychotechnologies that helped people to be trauma resistant or helped them if they had PTSD. We just lost contact with many of them an…

> At the very least, I would argue historic wars had more contextual meaning with them, fighting for one's land, nation, loved ones were more immediate and connected to the action, War has been the same across millennia: rulers getting into fights and forcing the ruled to fight for these wars for them.

Not always. War was also a career, a way to provide to your (present, future) family by stealing resources from others (pillaging). Rulers often rewarded veterans with lands of the conquered etc.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#163

Post by john-radio » Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

bbsanon wrote: post #161

I am a person who was physically and emotionally abused by peers as a child, who had a horrible, life changing experience on a psychedelic as a minor, and who has tinnitus and hyperacusis as a result of overexposure before 20. I am now decades older and my life turned out horribly. I have many of the symptoms of PTSD, so it’s reasonable to self diagnose as such. I’m self destructive and suicidal, in constant mental t…

I'm glad that you are here for now. Thanks for sharing about your experiences with PTSD, and sorry that you have had them.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#164

Post by yboris » Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

RyJones wrote: post #58

yboris wrote: post #43

I wonder if PTSD is particularly likely when the terrible events occur spontaneously without obvious warning. Modern weaponry that allows one to die without an enemy visible probably exacerbates things. In the olden days you'd be charging towards the enemy for at least a while before you witnessed your comrades getting killed.

On Killing[0] covers some of this. The author argues that extended demob times in WW2 helped; supposedly, this is why people leaving Iraq and elsewhere end up "doing nothing in Kuwait" for weeks on end cleaning equipment. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing

I wonder if this is also related to "peak-end rule"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end_rule

People generally seem to remember the 'height' of an experience and the last parts of it. So an experience at a dentist where the last part of the procedure is a mild bit of additional drilling is 'better' than one that ends on a painful 'note'.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#165

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 6:31 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #138

_wovb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this. I’m a trauma therapist, I work with many people who have PTSD. Reading this article all I could think was: Trauma is a sophisticated concept. As a society and species, we are pretty “trauma naive” in that we have just recently come to this understanding of the very complex web of psychological, somatic, emotional, sociological, intergenerational, and cultural aspects of this experience. Because of th…

> "We know for a fact that mammals get PTSD after being in highly stressful experiences that they are unable to metabolize." my otherwise wonderful dog, adopted from a rescue org when she was ~3 years old, plainly has PTSD from prior trauma. she spent the first 3 months with me going through frequent cycles of fear diarrhea, usually in the very early morning hours. i can only guess that she was treated badly by a ver…

> >fearful/cautious of men

As a complete side note, I've always wondered how dogs tell human males from females.

Are we even sure they do?

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#166

Post by anm89 » Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

Am I wrong to think this is a nonsensical question? I mean PTSD is just a term. I'm not saying there is not a real phenomenon underlying it but it's not something that can be objectively tested for in the sense of a blood test or something. It seems to essentially mean a subjective evaluation of "severe emotional trauma with lasting consequences"

So if you ask: "Was there severe emotional trauma with lasting consequences in the medieval world" and assuming that people 600 years ago were not biologically incapable of having emotional trauma, than yes of course, if we tested some of those people using the procedures and criteria we use today to diagnose PTSD, of course yes, we would conclude that they did have it.

Hearing psychology professionals take tautologically nonsensical questions like this seriously really makes me lose faith in modern psychology.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#167

Post by wayoutthere » Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #165

clairity wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We know for a fact that mammals get PTSD after being in highly stressful experiences that they are unable to metabolize." my otherwise wonderful dog, adopted from a rescue org when she was ~3 years old, plainly has PTSD from prior trauma. she spent the first 3 months with me going through frequent cycles of fear diarrhea, usually in the very early morning hours. i can only guess that she was treated badly by a ver…

> >fearful/cautious of men As a complete side note, I've always wondered how dogs tell human males from females. Are we even sure they do?

Almost certainly by smell.

I'm a trans woman, and when I started hormones, one of the first things my partner noticed was that my odor went from overpowering and musty to just kind of "stale". I can get away with wearing shirts 2 or 3 times between washings, or go without bathing for a day or two. That was definitely not possible before hormones (at least without offending the people around me).

So I'd say yeah, if even humans can tell the difference in most cases then a dog definitely would.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#168

Post by Ar-Curunir » Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

ithkuil wrote: post #162

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the very least, I would argue historic wars had more contextual meaning with them, fighting for one's land, nation, loved ones were more immediate and connected to the action, War has been the same across millennia: rulers getting into fights and forcing the ruled to fight for these wars for them.

Not always. War was also a career, a way to provide to your (present, future) family by stealing resources from others (pillaging). Rulers often rewarded veterans with lands of the conquered etc.

That's precisely what war still is for many Americans too: a way to get cheap college, a guaranteed career, etc. Doesn't change the fact that it's still the poor being forced to take this option; the only difference is that it's the economy (controlled by the rulers) that's doing the coercion, instead of the rulers directly.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#169

Post by mjevans » Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #165

clairity wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We know for a fact that mammals get PTSD after being in highly stressful experiences that they are unable to metabolize." my otherwise wonderful dog, adopted from a rescue org when she was ~3 years old, plainly has PTSD from prior trauma. she spent the first 3 months with me going through frequent cycles of fear diarrhea, usually in the very early morning hours. i can only guess that she was treated badly by a ver…

> >fearful/cautious of men As a complete side note, I've always wondered how dogs tell human males from females. Are we even sure they do?

Probably scent, that's one of a dog's major senses. Not sure if it's the prevalence of perfumes or natural compounds.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#170

Post by hinkley » Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 6:55 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #138

_wovb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this. I’m a trauma therapist, I work with many people who have PTSD. Reading this article all I could think was: Trauma is a sophisticated concept. As a society and species, we are pretty “trauma naive” in that we have just recently come to this understanding of the very complex web of psychological, somatic, emotional, sociological, intergenerational, and cultural aspects of this experience. Because of th…

> "We know for a fact that mammals get PTSD after being in highly stressful experiences that they are unable to metabolize." my otherwise wonderful dog, adopted from a rescue org when she was ~3 years old, plainly has PTSD from prior trauma. she spent the first 3 months with me going through frequent cycles of fear diarrhea, usually in the very early morning hours. i can only guess that she was treated badly by a ver…

We went to look at a rescue Chihuahua which I was not enthused by (they are difficult to read, which I think leads to their reputation of being erratic, moody).

This dog was a wreck. Profoundly terrified of men. Most chihuahuas bark when they're afraid, this one just sat, quaking, watching me the whole time.

I self-identify as an animal magnet so this became a matter of principle to me. It was obvious fifteen minutes in that this dog wasn't coming home with us, but the rescue person was invested in getting this dog exposed to more people so we just chatted while I sat on the floor cross legged, keeping my voice level, all of my gestures slow and exaggerated, and not making eye contact with the dog.

It took 90 minutes for that dog to interact with me, and he just came over and plopped down next to me, leaning against my thigh. After that, we were cool. I only hope that meant the next people didn't take an hour and a half to get that far.