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Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

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Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#121

Excellent counterpoint from r/AskHistorians (paragraph breaks added for legibility): [1] > Cross-cultural psychologists have observed that, regardless of cultural background, people who suffer persistent emotional disturbances in the wake of a traumatic event exhibit intrusive memory symptoms in some form. Here in the US, these are closely related to what we commonly call "flashbacks." For the Romans, people experien…

One of the interesting comments from the AskHistorians FAQ on PTSD is that, in the classical world, PTSD like behaviour was more commonly associated with public shame rather than private guilt.

They might have felt much less conflicted by killing because they did not come from a cultural background where killing your enemies is usually prohibited. Our justification as a culture for warfare starts with "of course, killing is bad, but..." and then looks into when it is allowable.

Many of the examples we have of things that look like PTSD are from failed rebels, people who were involved in civil wars, or people who had been disgraced. That would mean that they experienced the same sort of reaction to a stressor that they couldn't process but that the type of stressor that might trigger such a reaction was fundamentally different.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#122
post #84

Excellent counterpoint from r/AskHistorians (paragraph breaks added for legibility): [1] > Cross-cultural psychologists have observed that, regardless of cultural background, people who suffer persistent emotional disturbances in the wake of a traumatic event exhibit intrusive memory symptoms in some form. Here in the US, these are closely related to what we commonly call "flashbacks." For the Romans, people experien…

Thanks for this. I’m a trauma therapist, I work with many people who have PTSD. Reading this article all I could think was: Trauma is a sophisticated concept. As a society and species, we are pretty “trauma naive” in that we have just recently come to this understanding of the very complex web of psychological, somatic, emotional, sociological, intergenerational, and cultural aspects of this experience. Because of th…

Does your username come from your interest in trauma? A palimpsest is a pretty elegant physical representation of human memory.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#123
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that standing there as a poor peasant with a spear, while getting charged by a horde of knights on massive battle horses in full armour is any less traumatic than the crack of a snipers bullet whizzing over ones head. And medieval combat was quite a gruesome affair, cleaving people into peaces with axes and swords, in an age without proper medical care... What has changed though, is the staying power of armie…

Mmmm I'm deeply wary of an absence of evidence about a condition which civilization today still can't actually acknowledge properly existing being evidence of its absence. "Gun cleaning" accidents, as the socially accepted cover for male suicide by people everyone wants to ignore were suffering from depression or PTSD.

See fan death in korea.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This rarity breeds isolation highly related: the opposite of addiction isnt sobriety, its connectedness. https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_y... a large amount of resources are spent reimprinting the fact that people and emotional, irrational animals. ignoring this fact leads to its rediscovery and reexplanation in so many facets of our life: disaster planning and recovery, politics, economi…

And because we get more done by specializing, everyone has to be as disconnected as we can afford. And although there was always a hidden price on it, now the price is obvious: Friendship is expensive, and your friends also have to pay, for it to work. Sometimes I wonder what life would be like in a village where everyone did the same agriculture tasks and I was working together with everyone of the same gender. Even…

That's interesting; I never felt that programming was an isolated job. The offices I worked at always had plenty of socialization, both in interaction for work purposes (with not just other programmers, but also other people on the company and even quite a few clients) and during breaks, lunches, post-work outings, etc.

I guess this might be different in a large org with impermeable "silos", where you just talk to your direct teammates and work comes in the form of tickets. I mostly worked in small companies (under 50 people), with little bureaucracy, and specialization is a little less strict.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also concussive blast damage was far, far more common from WW1 than in any previous war. The Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) caused by blast damage isn't externally visible, but is responsible for some of the common symptoms of PTSD[1]. We know there are forms of PTSD unrelated to blast-based TBI, but it's quite possible that pre-WWI soliders didn't experience PTSD as much because there weren't as many explosions. Combi…

I'm always dubious about this. "Decimation" was a horrific thing, inflicted on Roman Legions as punishment for cowardice. It meant killing one out of every ten soldiers. So it seems to me that that's the extreme upper bound of casualties - 10%. Anything more and running away to face decimation would improve your odds. But the survivors might well have trauma from their actions not their injuries. Hacking another huma…

I think you also have to consider the fact that throughout history, the individual outcome of battles for most soldiers has been survival - either you win, flee, or become a prisoner. People did die, for sure, but maybe not as many as we imagine.

I wonder how much video games have do to with this perception? In a video game, you have a Kill-Death ratio, not a Kill-Death-Prisoner-Flee-Serious Injury-Light Injury ratio (I know some games have a more sophisticated model, but still).

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#126
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that standing there as a poor peasant with a spear, while getting charged by a horde of knights on massive battle horses in full armour is any less traumatic than the crack of a snipers bullet whizzing over ones head. And medieval combat was quite a gruesome affair, cleaving people into peaces with axes and swords, in an age without proper medical care... What has changed though, is the staying power of armie…

Mmmm I'm deeply wary of an absence of evidence about a condition which civilization today still can't actually acknowledge properly existing being evidence of its absence. "Gun cleaning" accidents, as the socially accepted cover for male suicide by people everyone wants to ignore were suffering from depression or PTSD.

> "Gun cleaning" accidents, as the socially accepted cover for male suicide by people everyone wants to ignore were suffering from depression or PTSD.

There's no doubt that happens, but on the other hand gun cleaning injuries (e.g. to limbs) are far from unheard of, as well as people accidentally putting holes in their house. Those are doubtlessly accidents, so I have no doubt that some of the "gun cleaning fatal accidents" truly were accidents. Any of these accidents should be prevented by dogmatically following basic safety procedures, but obviously sometimes some people don't. And sometimes, that has fatal consequences.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#128
post #120

The ancient world exposed people to more stress and more events of stress compared to developed world inhabitants. More stress => get used to stress => stress has less of an effect. Just like any form of mental or physical training: Get challenged => Grow to meet challenge => The same challenges as before are now less challenging. See: Stress inoculation "The stress inoculation hypothesis presupposes that brief inter…

I get that large sample sizes are impractical for experiments with monkeys, but I'm reluctant to draw conclusions from a study where all relevant groups have <= 10 participants.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#129
I am an United States Navy Corpsman and a veteran of a combat deployment. I am very thankful to see comments here disputing the author's claim that there are no signs of PTSD in the ancient world.

I do not have the classic "first page" symptoms from the DSM-V, as I like to call them. These are the flashbacks, intrusive memories, noise sensitivity - the common image of classic PTSD. I believe I do not have them because I never personally compromised my own value system and caused harm to innocent people. I did, however, witness milder events to an extent frequent and prolonged enough to cause a deep unmovable certainty that the world is tragically fucked up. That lead me to have all kinds of angsty aggressions in the direction of "the system" or "the world" at large. This anxious, overdriven fearful discontent lead me to be fully certain that life was tragic, and all around convinced that there was a conspiracy to make it so. It has taken over a decade for those certainties to subside. Some of it was immaturity, most of it was evidence.

My Marine battalion made front page NYT news for its suicide rate. Many Marines have not had the experience I had. I believe this is because they were younger than I was (25) and many went on one or even two combat deployments to Iraq prior to ours. They have done a sadly effective job at killing themselves. I believe the reason for this (with no evidence) is because these men were prone to enjoying and seeking opportunities to kill.

Apart from that guessing game, I also believe that the symptoms of PTSD are all-around easy to suppress and make look like other things. Most of the behavior associated with "toxic masculinity" as it is currently being called can be instead directed towards a PTSD diagnosis or some kind of traumatic reaction. I am sure of this. So the fact that the ancient world had all these orders and so forth with vows and tight-knit little clans are all a sign to me that they were just like the soldiers returning from WWII who became bikers; they were rattled badly. They had to put on that cold, tightly-wound demeanor by force of the nervousness that lay underneath. All those sovereign military orders and all that? They were all PTSD clubs.

In opposition to this ideal, there is a book titled "On Killing" which describes why not all killers are susceptible to PTSD. I believe the book is fairly accurate in its claim, however it does exactly what those old military orders did: it creates a warrior ethos which allows for an in-group admission of the experiences while keeping the out-group afraid of the warriors. According to the book, there is a subsection of humanity that are naturally capable of killing without it being contrary to their values. They do not revel in it as some do. They are not triggered by it as many are. This is the chivalrous vision of being a trigger-puller.

My experience of events which ought to be traumatic is mostly that they only return to bother us if there is some behavior that was contrary to the individuals values. Those vary. To move the slider as far to the (?) as is necessary to justify killing on moral, religious, personal, political/tribal/cultural grounds, and showering killers in rewards after the fact, including great tales of valour, etc that make all those sacrifices worthy: that is the means of shielding the society from the reality of there being a fraction of the people who are extremely fucked up from having hacked/shot/blown people to pieces.

One final note: it was far more common to die from wounds and disease. Many people just plain didn't survive the wars due to wounds and plagues. Or they were assimilated somewhat into their enemies worlds and never returned to exactly the same place where people could say: "holy shit, you're different."

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#130
post #84

Excellent counterpoint from r/AskHistorians (paragraph breaks added for legibility): [1] > Cross-cultural psychologists have observed that, regardless of cultural background, people who suffer persistent emotional disturbances in the wake of a traumatic event exhibit intrusive memory symptoms in some form. Here in the US, these are closely related to what we commonly call "flashbacks." For the Romans, people experien…

Thanks for this. I’m a trauma therapist, I work with many people who have PTSD. Reading this article all I could think was: Trauma is a sophisticated concept. As a society and species, we are pretty “trauma naive” in that we have just recently come to this understanding of the very complex web of psychological, somatic, emotional, sociological, intergenerational, and cultural aspects of this experience. Because of th…

I disagree about being trauma naive as a society. Having a scientific understanding of trauma is separate from having phenomenological understanding of trauma, and I believe we have a large amount of knowledge and wisdom about the latter. I also believe there is a large repertoire of psychotechnologies that helped people to be trauma resistant or helped them if they had PTSD. We just lost contact with many of them and psychotherapy is perhaps the only dominant vessel for us in rediscovering those.

Peter Levine's most famous example is a polar bear that shakes a potentially traumatic stimulus off after being shot with tranquilizer. He argues even non-human mammals have the instinctive know-how to deal with trauma. Why humans would be lagging behind other than undue suppression of their instincts on how to deal with it? If anything, our modern society that puts so much stake at "being in control" is a hindrance to post-traumatic resolution than historical societies would be.

A crucial requirement for traumatic retention is a sense of loss of control that accompanies hyperarousal. No perceived lack of control = no trauma. In the context of combat PTSD, there is a large difference between modern warfare technologies and historical warfare in terms of the loss of control it induces (both for soldiers and civillians). At the very least, I would argue historic wars had more contextual meaning with them, fighting for one's land, nation, loved ones were more immediate and connected to the action, as opposed to being flown to a foreign country for less-than-well understood purposes.

Even for complex-PTSD, nuclear and even single parent households being a recent state of affairs, I would argue historically having multiple adult figures in one's childhood context prevented a problematic relationship with a single adult dominating the development experience of the child. Also those children had more access to natural world early on (unsupervised play time), developed competencies (e.g. working in the farm with parents) and afforded many other developmental freedoms, therefore likely to have developed trauma resilience. What was a rite-of-passage ritual supervised by the elders if not a training program for developing trauma resilience?

I would say it might as well be our current world that is more trauma-naive, trauma-generating and trauma-retaining than historical ones. We have the collective wisdom on how to deal with it, but insurance doesn't pay for it and you gotta show up at the office the next day.

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