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Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

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Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#231

Post by looping__lui »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #113
looping__lui wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like you can actually vote? Like there are more than two parties with the same take on social security? So you are telling me that the system in the US is like how the majority of people want it or that people have no say in the system?

Few people think it's perfect, but most Americans do agree that capitalism and representative democracy are good ideas that are working okay.

Yes, I understand.

And THAT is the reason why it is as it is. Why is Amazon then always the scapegoat?

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#232

Post by Izkata »

greendude29 wrote: post #156
bhupy wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Total death counts in the US are still going up. It depends on the state, though. New deaths are decreasing in many States, including Washington, Texas, and California [1]. Looking at the US, as a whole, isn't really useful here. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/washington-coron...

This is ridiculous. I don't understand the defensiveness. The United States is a nation. It has a federal government and federal bodies which are responsible for preventing spread of disease. People can travel freely within these bounds without passports or visas or checkpoints. Of course states have their own rules, and this is good, and yes, some states are doing better than others, but why the fear of revealing th…

> It has a federal government and federal bodies which are responsible for preventing spread of disease.

The response is handled at the state level, not the federal level. The federal level can provide advice and help coordinate actions between states / provide backup resources, but isn't meant to take direct action.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#233

Post by uoaei »

looping__lui wrote: post #209
uoaei wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon routinely involves themselves in social/political systems to exploit the circumstances to their benefit. See: their involvement in Seattle politics vs Kshama Sawant; the recent bidding war between cities for Amazon's HQ2 and all the tax benefits that were laid at their feet; the routine union-busting efforts including literally forcing some workers to attend an online course about why unions are bad... the lis…

The Catholic Church in Germany had it written into LAW that they can deny its employees to unionize or strike and they can discriminate them (e.g., fire them) for their personal and religious beliefs. Oh, and did I mention that thousands of cases of sexual abuse went unpunished because the German Catholic Church made sure that they would not be prosecuted? So, give me a break with for-profit company morale - or put d…

I actually never used the term "for-profit" to describe the issues, for good reason. Money is useful only insofar as it helps you gain and maintain power -- it is power and the ability to influence reality to your benefit that is the fundamental quantity being optimized in this system. Framing the power grab as fundamentally about power (is obvious, and) makes it apparent that the Catholic church in your example wanted to maintain a public reputation positive enough to continue to earn donations and devoted followers, which is why they made sure to avoid prosecution since that's usually a huge hit to one's public reputation. So your comment about "The Catholic Church in Germany had it written into LAW" aligns with my point perfectly because again they are wielding influence to improve their circumstances, independent of considerations of the consequences for others.

So to get to your question: I am not being comparative here. I am attempting to study the fundamental drives that sustain and grow corporations. I am interested in contrasting what are generally considered "human rights" (in both positive and negative senses[1]) with what ends up being encouraged and perpetuated by the actions of those corporations as singular entities. My baseline to compare the actions of corporations is versus what I would imagine a compassionate superintelligence might do. Obviously this is biased toward my own ethics/morals but I think that's ok because I generally try to reduce suffering and make things more equitable.

My baseline is basically 1) what is "affordable" for the actors which are wielding their power vs the benefits for the people whom are subject to the consequences of the decisions of those actors, and 2) what those actors actually do with the money and power at their disposal vs what they could have done to improve the material conditions of a large number of people.

Using precedent as a baseline seems stupid to me... only consider the fact that the tradition of "law" is quite young and has been continuously shaped by those in power since its inception, and so shall not be a basis for moral or ethical understanding.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#234

Post by uoaei »

duxup wrote: post #82
uoaei wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those aren't facts, those are PR slogans from a blog post on Amazon's web site. I am not holding my breath to see whether these policies are enacted in good faith, given Amazon's business practices and labor relations of late.

Are you saying Amazon didn't do the things the other user noted?

I'm being specific about the framing and the narrative that is constructed when well-meaning users parrot corporate talking points in an organic setting like a public Internet forum.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#235

Post by uoaei »

alexpetralia wrote: post #178
themagician wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$25/hr base. That’s what I have to pay as a small employer to keep people for basic assembly and packaging during this. That’s what I felt was fair, since that’s what unemployment pays in my state. I figured I have to at least match that, so I did. I had to let a few people go and scale back, but helped them all navigate the UI claim’s process. Paid out their PTO balance to hold them over. I wouldn’t be able to sleep…

It certainly sounds like you the hero of your own story, and like any good story, there are always villains!

It certainly sounds like you're pooh-poohing someone who is advocating for paying human beings enough to survive and be happy.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#236

Post by jachee »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #230
jachee wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part of "punished for working too many hours" is mutually beneficial? How about not scheduling anyone full-time, but stopping just short to avoid supporting them? How about not paying anyone outside of management above minimum wage? How about not establishing regular schedules published in a timely manner?

They are keeping their wages low by avoiding mandatory pay rises that come with statutory overtime. So to reiterate: they offer low wages, and their actions are consistent with that objective. Yet the workers all chose to work there, implying it was better than the next best option available to them. For the employees, they are better off for that employer offering the employment, than not doing so. So my point stand…

> Yet the workers all chose to work there, implying it was better than the next best option available to them.

That's not how minimum-wage labor effectively works. The workers (many of whom have just entered the workforce, myself included at the time) apply for all the available jobs in their area and hope that at least one hires them.

At that level, the employers are in a race to the bottom, and rather than attempting to be a better choice to attract and support their labor force, their reliance on the workers' desperation means they all push the limits to see how much they can get out of workers for how little in return. It's the entire reason we even have minimum wage laws.

And they all do it. There's nothing particularly noteworthy about any given employer. I saw the same behavior, through my siblings' experience, at four different mega-franchisers.

> For the employees, they are better off for that employer offering the employment, than not doing so.

So, no. The employees aren't any better off being exploited by any given employer, when their only other choice is unemployment or identical exploitation by another employer.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#237

Post by CryptoPunk »

jachee wrote: post #236
CryptoPunk wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are keeping their wages low by avoiding mandatory pay rises that come with statutory overtime. So to reiterate: they offer low wages, and their actions are consistent with that objective. Yet the workers all chose to work there, implying it was better than the next best option available to them. For the employees, they are better off for that employer offering the employment, than not doing so. So my point stand…

> Yet the workers all chose to work there, implying it was better than the next best option available to them. That's not how minimum-wage labor effectively works. The workers (many of whom have just entered the workforce, myself included at the time) apply for all the available jobs in their area and hope that at least one hires them. At that level, the employers are in a race to the bottom, and rather than attempti…

>>The workers (many of whom have just entered the workforce, myself included at the time) apply for all the available jobs in their area and hope that at least one hires them

The workers could work for themselves, hawking products on the sidewalk, or going door-to-door offering to do odd jobs.

The jobs being offered provide a better path forward for them, which is why they apply for them rather than being self-employed.

>>their reliance on the workers' desperation means they all push the limits to see how much they can get out of workers for how little in return.

All employers try to maximize how much they get for what they pay. The wage level makes no difference to the employers' basic objective.

But what the employer offers has to be worth more to the worker than what the worker gives up, or the worker won't work for them. There is no exception to this fact in any mutually agreed employment contract.

>>There's nothing particularly noteworthy about any given employer.

You said they're in a race to the bottom, so there must be differences between them.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#238

Post by jachee »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #237
jachee wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet the workers all chose to work there, implying it was better than the next best option available to them. That's not how minimum-wage labor effectively works. The workers (many of whom have just entered the workforce, myself included at the time) apply for all the available jobs in their area and hope that at least one hires them. At that level, the employers are in a race to the bottom, and rather than attempti…

>>The workers (many of whom have just entered the workforce, myself included at the time) apply for all the available jobs in their area and hope that at least one hires them The workers could work for themselves, hawking products on the sidewalk, or going door-to-door offering to do odd jobs. The jobs being offered provide a better path forward for them, which is why they apply for them rather than being self-employ…

I recommend you try a minimum wage job for a year or two.

It'll open up your eyes and your mind.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#239

Post by CryptoPunk »

jachee wrote: post #238
CryptoPunk wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The workers (many of whom have just entered the workforce, myself included at the time) apply for all the available jobs in their area and hope that at least one hires them The workers could work for themselves, hawking products on the sidewalk, or going door-to-door offering to do odd jobs. The jobs being offered provide a better path forward for them, which is why they apply for them rather than being self-employ…

I recommend you try a minimum wage job for a year or two. It'll open up your eyes and your mind.

That's not relevant to my arguments. It's effectively an appeal to emotion.
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