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Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

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Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#21
post #12

If you're so inclined to go down a rabbit hole of 100+ hours of content, I highly suggest having a listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History [1]. Dan is particularly interested in military history, especially ancient military history. He has an episode on Caesar's conquest of Gaul (which he argues in any kind of modern context would be called a genocide) as well as a series on the great Persian kings, called the King o…

This excellent blog series [0] goes in to a little more details on the Roman Conquest, in the specific context of many cultures glorifying the primitive other as being morally pure and more capable fighters. Genocide is the only word to use. I previously had no idea just how, erm, effective the Romans were.

> historical events that could've completely changed the course of history

The battle of Teutoburg Forest [1][2] is another one. Had the Roman general Varius not fallen in to Arminius ambush, things might have been vastly different. The Romans never again had a solid footing beyond the Rhine and the battle was used again and again to forge German identity.

> One thing he notes is that the closer someone is to someone, the harder it is for them to (psychologically) kill them.

This same effect is discussed extensively in the book On Killing [3] and similar conclusions can be drawn from the Milgram Experiment [4]. On Killing also mentions that stabbing weapons are psychologically harder to use than slashing weapons. It specifically mentions the Roman Gladius.

0 - https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-...

1 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000f69q

2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest

3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing

4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#22
The way I see it, in the ancient world, PTS"D" served a purpose... If you saw "some shit" like your tribesmate getting mauled by a bear/tiger, it was helpful to your survival to be on high alert if you ever encountered a situation similar to the one where that happened. The complex of stimili was imprinted to a certain synapse pathway, and anytime you felt like you were in the same situation as before, you would want to be on extra-high-alert fight or flight mode.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#23
post #3

On a related note, a while ago I read a little about how ancient families coped with the deaths of their children. My takeaway, pretty much cribbed from this article [1], was that such deaths produced less trauma than they would today because: (1) More families lost children. This lessened the trauma because a family could talk to other nearby families who had experienced the same thing. Those families would also be…

I do believe that modern society regressed on these topics. Another instance is "insanity". Today the standard answer is psychiatry/psychiatric ward.. But there was a documentary about mildly handicapped people being hosted by a group of elders in a big house. And these potential patient, looked happy as a puppy in this environment. Gut feeling level of improvement IMO. Now I think I've read that people accepted hand…

At least where I live the only reason someone would be put on a psych ward is because they are a danger to themselves or others.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#24
I'm sorry but this has to be the most un-scientific account I've read on the topic (granted, I read few), and it's incredibly misleading.

- Humans did not change biologically enough in 10,000 years, let alone 2,000, to produce a meaningfully different psychology. Take a a child born 2,000 years ago, raise them today, and you'll get just a regular human being. Same thing backwards.

- The entirety of the author's 'hypothesis' (sic) rests upon ignoring that nurture, context, is highly determinant in forming psychological references, relative perceptions, hence reactions, profiles. This is wrong, nature isn't 100%, you simply can't take two identical beings, put them in vastly different contexts and hope they present the same behaviors and perceptions. It makes no sense. Hello Darwin, wish you were here.

- “the absence of evidence”... Again, wrong. Historical psychology is a thing. Author may be well-meaning, but they should adopt a transdisciplinary approach if they are to talk about multiple disciplines at once. Find a good psychologist, work together as one on the topic long enough to form a legitimate hypotheses, then maybe make some conclusions.

- It seems the author also neglected to take into account philosophy, which used to be 99% practical back then. Recipes for good living. Guess why it was widely taught and shared, pretty much the basis of any education, throughout life. Guess why Seneca wrote his letters. What's the point of ignoring just about the closest thing to psychology sessions? Why is Stoicism not in that essay?

I feel like I've just read a mathematician trying, painfully, to speak of epidemiology. (forgive the "modern" reference, I think it's fitting as we speak)

Whatever your core expertise, armchair-other disciplines is a slippery slope. I guess the author somehow mistook his own intelligence for knowledge in psychology.

Say whatever you want about our past, you won't find a psychologist or biologist to tell you we've changed in any way, shape or form "inside". The context, however, ah, the context. Well for that, this thread on HN is much more eloquent, I must say. It's almost as if people collectively had insight! (because this is written: "/s", of course they do, and I wish the author didn't simply write solo or fail to question or quote others.

Here's food for thought: the very fact of "talking about your feelings" is very modern, that's a totally different context. We just didn't dwell on that topic as much in history (hence why, perhaps, some literature became so notorious, because it spoke of something that people weren't used to). It was "fluff". Hence why, when we made "emotions" a matter of science, it became a more acceptable topic, not just for a few who dared. It became "mainstream". (I'm NOT a specialist, so don't quote me on this but Freud, Jung, positivism, is probably where/when to look for a major shift; before that it was "magic", fluff, but it doesn't mean it wasn't "real", like belief in supernatural forces is "magic" but real to the psyche).

Imagine that, in the future, we turn some (currently) elusive aspect of our psyche (like belief indeed), into a form of science, of applied psycho-bio-model-mechanics (like we do cognitive sciences today, a scientific progress over prior centuries). Now imagine some author versed in history but oblivious to psychology and biology, centuries from now, claiming in some random short post that people in the 21st century did not experience any tension in that regard because they didn't have words for it. Well, we may not have the words indeed, not yet; but we certainly experience the tensions with beliefs (supernatural or otherwise), heck we made wars because of it. Just like kings of old have waged war because their feelings commanded them to.

That, my friend, is ethnocentricity of a temporal form (not strictly spatial as is usually the implication with that notion). At best, it's blinding Omphaloskepsis.

Edit: lovely downvotes! So, you think PTSD is a modern thing. You think human psychology has changed dramatically in a few centuries. Alright, point taken! FWIW, I've spoken with psychologists explicitly about this question, and my view is informed by their conclusions. You may wish to rethink your modern bias on biology.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#25
One thing I'd question here is that conditions during the second Punic War were normal. They very much weren't; it was an existential crisis. My impression was that for most of its history, Rome's armies simply weren't particularly large. And that re-integration into civilian life may not have been as common as all that; terms of military service were very long, and there was a tendency to form soldier colonies as a solution for dealing with pensioned-off soldiers.

These societies were also far, far more violent than ours. The sort of random violence that might be attributed to PTSD today would likely be part of the background noise in Medieval Italy, say.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#26
post #3

On a related note, a while ago I read a little about how ancient families coped with the deaths of their children. My takeaway, pretty much cribbed from this article [1], was that such deaths produced less trauma than they would today because: (1) More families lost children. This lessened the trauma because a family could talk to other nearby families who had experienced the same thing. Those families would also be…

Grief is never wrong, only our relationships to grief. This is true of all emotions.

Hm. Think of how you normally try to comfort someone who is grieving about something that is not (in your opinion, at least) of paramount importance. For example, the loss of a sum of money. Would you rather say:

"your loss is terrible and only you can understand fully how deep the pain is; savour it and integrate it in your person- it will take years to recover and will eventually become a part of you"

or would you rather say

"hey, I understand, but it's not such a big deal after all- happened to me as well, you won't care in a year".

The first seems to me the way to encourage everlasting trauma. And it seems the common approach today, as a way to show respect for other people's suffering.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#27
post #3

On a related note, a while ago I read a little about how ancient families coped with the deaths of their children. My takeaway, pretty much cribbed from this article [1], was that such deaths produced less trauma than they would today because: (1) More families lost children. This lessened the trauma because a family could talk to other nearby families who had experienced the same thing. Those families would also be…

I do believe that modern society regressed on these topics. Another instance is "insanity". Today the standard answer is psychiatry/psychiatric ward.. But there was a documentary about mildly handicapped people being hosted by a group of elders in a big house. And these potential patient, looked happy as a puppy in this environment. Gut feeling level of improvement IMO. Now I think I've read that people accepted hand…

Mildly mentally handicapped people normally aren't institutionalised today. Long-term/residential psychiatric hospitals are for very severe cases.

This feels like a pretty rosy-tinted view of pre-modern institutionalisation, too. A lot of these people would have ended up in workhouses and similar.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#28
post #24

I'm sorry but this has to be the most un-scientific account I've read on the topic (granted, I read few), and it's incredibly misleading. - Humans did not change biologically enough in 10,000 years, let alone 2,000, to produce a meaningfully different psychology. Take a a child born 2,000 years ago, raise them today, and you'll get just a regular human being. Same thing backwards. - The entirety of the author's 'hypo…

Your own first two points are in conflict. Either humans from the past raised in today's world would be like today's humans, or like the past's humans. Pick one.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#29
post #3

On a related note, a while ago I read a little about how ancient families coped with the deaths of their children. My takeaway, pretty much cribbed from this article [1], was that such deaths produced less trauma than they would today because: (1) More families lost children. This lessened the trauma because a family could talk to other nearby families who had experienced the same thing. Those families would also be…

Do you have kids?

It’s a very strange idea that somehow mothers loved their children any less in times past.

I wonder if your opinion is from someone with kids or not.

Re: Was there PTSD in the ancient or medieval world?

#30
Another interesting angle on this question comes from the Jaynes bicameral mind hypothesis [0].

Given that a major component of PTSD is moral injury -- e.g., I can't believe someone intentionally did that to me / I can't believe I had to do that to someone else -- I wonder whether (if the bicameral mind theory is true which I think it is) ancient warriors experienced PTSD not as internal angst but rather as a "dialogue among the gods" that happened in one's head following stress.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)

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