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How much power can we expect from rainfall?

eighteenthelephant.com

21–30 of 110 posts

Re: How much power can we expect from rainfall?

#21
post #2

"Shockingly, and inexcusably in my opinion, the researchers only state the instantaneous power (50 W/m2) of their device..." That's not entirely fair. If Nature demanded that articles be written defensively, anticipating possible misinterpretations from non specialists, they would be very different articles with lower bandwidth for the target audience, who already know the difference between average and instantaneous…

I think it is pretty misleading if they just gave the peak device power density. As in the car analogy given in TFA, if you were to burn all 270 Calories of a single Snickers bar in a thousandth of a second, your device would have a peak power of about 1 gigawatt, comparable to a large nuclear power plant. Yet if your publication said you had made a 1 GW device instead of saying that your device could power a single…

I would be interested to see a food chart that described how long various things can power a home in minutes.

Can a salad power a home longer than a snickers bar? Or what about a potato.

Re: How much power can we expect from rainfall?

#22
post #16

I'm surprised that tidal energy is not yet a big player. The amount of potential energy is massive, and it's very reliable, unless the moon falls of its orbit.

I have a friend who was very interested in investing in this space, and did some research.

TLDR, even though the tech is probably mature enough, the economics just aren’t there for private industry yet. It’s require major state-level funding to get it off the ground at this point, IMO. Very similar to how solar used to be.

First, tidal turbines are very specialized pieces of hardware (compared to wind turbines), that have to survive corrosive brine for a decade to pay for themselves. There are not many competing manufacturers, and they are expensive. The wires connecting them to land are also expensive, both in installation but especially in maintenance. So the up front and ongoing capital expenditures are relatively high, and there isn’t an economy of scale like there is for wind turbines and solar panels.

Second, there aren’t as many places that are well situated for tidal as you think. You need a basin of relatively shallow ocean, close to metropolitan power grids. There are only a handful of places like this in the world (around the UK, India, Australia), and developers would require a lot of work to get approval to develop this space, compared to solar or wind, where permit-seeking has relatively well-trodden path.

That would be fine, and we’d still be in business, but third, when you compare it to the opportunity cost of investing in a more traditional (or even “renewable”) power plant of a similar output, the story really falls apart. The ROI for the builder just isn’t there, and it makes way more sense to build solar or wind farms.

Some forward thinking governments are trying to help the ROI angle by providing subsidies on the generated electricity, but as a developer this is sketchy, because you still aren’t breaking even until 5-10 years, even with subsidies, and subsidies themselves can be politically fickle. When you combine this with the uncertainty attached to the turbines being relatively bespoke technology (compared to the commodity of wind turbines and solar panels), it makes sense why we haven’t seen more development here.

Re: How much power can we expect from rainfall?

#23
post #4

I looked at this area a few decades ago and two approaches stood out as potential, though not stand out. 1) Roofs already collect a large surface area and funnel into a single point via roof guttering - so tapping the flow from the gutter run off would enable a viable volume of water turn a motor in the drain pipe as it descended and generate power. 2) Piezo electric generating from the roof, though was looking at a…

Most of the potential energy of rain is wasted as it falls through the sky. What you really want is a huge funnel held up by enormous hydrogen balloons that catches the rain directly from the cloud, and miles-long hose coming out of the bottom. Then you'll get some real bang for your buck!

Re: How much power can we expect from rainfall?

#24
post #18

I absolutely love the gist of the article: interpreting quantitative research is something most of us are fundamentally illiterate on. That's definitely how I feel about it at least. Others might feel differently. That said, how does one actual build skills in this area. It feels like the author is able to do this here because it's a research paper in an area they have knowledge in. How does one build up a general ab…

As the author notes in the article, all this takes is basic knowledge of physics units, and the only math required is addition and multiplication. So it’s a matter of basic skills to some extent, but that’s not really the key.

The way you get better at this is by doing it, a lot. Every time you read such an article, or some one relays such information to you, run the math through your head as much as you can. Make notes of the things you don’t know that prevent you from pushing the thinking further, and methodically learn about those. Don’t think of yourself in terms of particular labels - eg “I’m not much of a physics person” or “I’m a software guy” - your job is to understand the world, solve problems, answer questions.

It’s a constant effort and it’s not easy. It helps to surround yourself with others with the same drive. It helps to teach, as it forces you to constantly reassess the fundamentals, and the common mistakes beginners make (see Feynman’s writing on that topic).

Re: How much power can we expect from rainfall?

#25
Remember the "pavement that generated electricity"? [1] Raised £2.6m by crowdfunding. Turns what they really power is "exciting brand activation". By this they mean something you step on which interrogates your cell phone and ships the identity data off for marketing purposes.

[1] https://pavegen.com/

Re: How much power can we expect from rainfall?

#27
I'm having trouble understanding what the article's title actually means right now. Can HN parse this down for me, please:

> Can the teardrops that fall after reading bad science writing generate renewable electricity? Yes, they can.

Re: How much power can we expect from rainfall?

#28
post #22
post #16

I'm surprised that tidal energy is not yet a big player. The amount of potential energy is massive, and it's very reliable, unless the moon falls of its orbit.

I have a friend who was very interested in investing in this space, and did some research. TLDR, even though the tech is probably mature enough, the economics just aren’t there for private industry yet. It’s require major state-level funding to get it off the ground at this point, IMO. Very similar to how solar used to be. First, tidal turbines are very specialized pieces of hardware (compared to wind turbines), that…

Thanks for sharing - great info. I still think that the potential energy (no pun intended) is huge, so if the engineering challenges are solved, it may not compete with solar, but should be competitive with wind.

Re: How much power can we expect from rainfall?

#29
post #4

I looked at this area a few decades ago and two approaches stood out as potential, though not stand out. 1) Roofs already collect a large surface area and funnel into a single point via roof guttering - so tapping the flow from the gutter run off would enable a viable volume of water turn a motor in the drain pipe as it descended and generate power. 2) Piezo electric generating from the roof, though was looking at a…

>Roofs already collect a large surface area and funnel into a single point via roof guttering - so tapping the flow from the gutter run off would enable a viable volume of water turn a motor in the drain pipe as it descended and generate power.

the purpose of a gutter is to direct the water to areas where it can seep into the ground without damaging the house (while carrying away leaves and other things that would rot and damage the roof), at least where I live, a motor in the drain pipe would slow down the gutters in its function, which you don't want to slow down in some of the rain you get in Denmark, and finally would leave it open to more easily blocking the drain. Of course one could put a guard up on the gutter to keep large things from coming down but as I understand it gutter guards aren't really a good idea https://www.cleanproguttercleaning.com/are-gutter-guards-wor... (from a company trying to sell gutter cleaning services so maybe should be taken with grain of salt but the arguments sound pretty reasonable) and at any rate I believe would still have to let things through that would be problematic for the motor to have through.

So essentially having a motor in the gutter for generating energy would mean the gutter could no longer be able to perform its function as a gutter and a new way to handle that would need to be devised.

Re: How much power can we expect from rainfall?

#30
post #4

I looked at this area a few decades ago and two approaches stood out as potential, though not stand out. 1) Roofs already collect a large surface area and funnel into a single point via roof guttering - so tapping the flow from the gutter run off would enable a viable volume of water turn a motor in the drain pipe as it descended and generate power. 2) Piezo electric generating from the roof, though was looking at a…

> But I'm all for micro based generation, like a wall of small wind turbines instead of one large one and more aesthetic and palatable to add to existing buildings and area's.

The problem with these is terrible efficiency as you scale down, due to fluid dynamics and the added redundancy from having multiple small units rather than one large one. This is why generators are huge.

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