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Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

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Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#141

Post by rstuart4133 »

jfoster wrote: post #101
justinclift wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're not producing reproducible builds, they're not really being serious are they?

You're seeking completely perfect solutions in a time of crisis where a "good enough" solution might save a lot of lives. Cut them some slack for trying to stem the harm of the pandemic. This situation affects every human.

You seem to be implying a reproducible build is difficult. It can be, if someone hasn't done it before. But in this case fdroid has done it before, and publishes how to do it.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#142

Post by alfiedotwtf »

mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

> - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together.

After the abuses of Metadata Retention, and how AABill passed, no. History shows that the Australian Government will and continue to abuse people. The Australian Government cannot be trusted, and if you do, you're naive.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#143

Post by alfiedotwtf »

missosoup wrote: post #130
mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

This attitude is anti-democratic and harmful. Please stop. > They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Extreme urgency is the perfect justification for governments to destroy the rights of the constituents. Never let a crisis go to waste as they say. Right now is exactly the time to be watching everything the government does with a lens of critical analysis. > Commend the governmen…

Correct. Extreme urgency is how the US got the PATRIOT Act.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#144

Post by rstuart4133 »

neximo64 wrote: post #55
mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

How do you realistically use this app if you have to keep it open. You and everyone else are so focussed on convincing everyone that it’s safe, etc and totally ignoring the practical aspects of it. For someone to have the app open for 15 mins within 1.5m all day.. how will that be done, it requires a large conscious commitment. You might as well just ask the person who is in your personal space for 15 consecutive min…

> If it worked in the background that’s more useful and realistic.

It does work in the background on Android, and I gather background scanning is coming on iOS.

As someone above said, don't get the perfect be the enemy of the good. Get it out the door, get it tested while you wait for Apple to get their act together is not only reasonable - it's the by far the best forward as an engineering strategy.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#145

Post by ggm »

I'd love to know where 15 minutes exposed came from. Feels like a value imputed from a join over battery drain and usefulness. I thought five minutes made more sense. If you are 15 min within 1.5m of a stranger in most Australian states you're probably mildly in beach of social distancing.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#146

Post by lbeltrame »

danieltillett wrote: post #137
mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

Mike my concern as a scientist about this app is it may not help much at this point. If it is only picking up people you spent more than 15 minutes talking to it is going to miss a lot transmission events. Do we have the contact tracing people to actually make use of this data? Even if we did I can’t see how we are going to avoid the need to interview each positive case to find all the people they came into contact w…

> 15 minutes talking to it is going to miss a lot transmission events.

Honest question (as a scientist myself): is there any serious non-preprint literature on the time needed for a transmission event (I assume estimates will vary wildly)?

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#147

Post by dabbledash »

jfoster wrote: post #98
discordance wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to trust them more, but the Australian government does not have a good track record with regards to privacy. Two such recent examples: - Australian's browser history is being provided to law enforcement even though that practice was excluded from the original intent and law [0] - Australia passed laws in 2018 which enable law enforcement to compel tech companies into inserting backdoors into their softwa…

Do you honestly believe that they are trying to do something other than stem the harm from this pandemic, or are you just protesting about something they did in the past that you're not happy about? If it is the latter, have you considered the harm that your protest may be doing?

I honestly believe that they will not bypass any opportunity to increase surveillance and that any kind of tracking that is normalized now will be expanded in the future.

I don’t believe that the people pushing this knowingly have bad intentions, but all the last decades have taught is “never give an inch.”

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#148

Post by rstuart4133 »

shermozle wrote: post #52
mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

Nope. Why is it normal to take a few weeks to release the source? If it's good enough to release its good enough o publish openly. This government has ample form. If you want my recommendation you need to open it up.

Firstly, it is not normal in the open source world. Hell, it's not even normal open source projects owned large companies that are the foundation for a major product - like Android. Secondly, as the story points out, it is a fork of an open source app that is already on github. It's not like the infrastructure for it isn't already set up - they just had to do a git clone, and then use standard CI techniques

Maybe the OP isn't familiar with the modern software engineering techniques we now use to improve quality.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#149

Post by alfiedotwtf »

Would anybody be interested in setting up a bounty? I'm thinking first team to show a major break in privacy wins the pool. I'll put in $100, and I hope others do too.

Edit: to be explicit, I'm talking about REing the app locally, nothing server side

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#150

Post by GordonS »

healsjnr1 wrote: post #117
jfoster wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe that they are trying to do something other than stem the harm from this pandemic, or are you just protesting about something they did in the past that you're not happy about? If it is the latter, have you considered the harm that your protest may be doing?

It is a combination of their previous behavior plus the behavior of the various agencies. For example: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/23/gover... The fact that law enforcement even asked for this would be to many people completely unacceptable. It's why, despite their efforts to assuage people, so many people will not trust this government. The backdoor legislation means that at a later date, aft…

This just goes to show that the police and security services will stop at nothing to increase surveillance of the general population.

It beggars belief that the police see COVID-19 as an opportunity in such an overt manner - but you can bet the security services see it as an opportunity in a much more circumspect manner.

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