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Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

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Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#121

Post by ImaCake »

contingencies wrote: post #115

Almost makes you want to write a dystopian travel advisory. Sydney, 2020. Foreign business people are advised to avoid all non-essential travel to Australia. Local authorities are known to seize devices, force self-isolation, force the installation of applications on mobile devices, inspect luggage and monitor the private telecommunications of travelers. Best practice is not to bring critical information to Australia…

I'm not sure what you are saying adds to this discussion. In fact I think it mis-directs a useful debate. All the things you are complaining about are true literally anywhere else in the developed world right now. In fact, Australia probably has more cause for them then most because self-iso and aggressive contact tracing have done so much to keep us safe so that we can be free sooner rather than later.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#122

Post by FridgeSeal »

pfortuny wrote: post #78
lysp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. The Aus Gov - especially the current one is massively lacking in trust. Encryption laws, metadata laws. Scope creep on metadata access (ie local councils, horse racing bodies). Lack of transparent reporting when these laws are in use. Raids on journalists. Not to mention their lack of transparency over bushfires, sports grants, angus taylor's family connections with mining / paying $90m? for water to as…

You may be right (probably are, as I am from Spain). But you should not focus on this specific government: the dangers of overstepping are great whatever the color or the chirality or even the deeds of a government.

On the contrary o think we should very much be focusing g on this government: Peter Dutton in particular has pushed repeatedly for increasingly authoritarian measures.

I’m super cautious about handing over data or enabling him at all.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#123

Post by Talanes »

pfortuny wrote: post #79
crispinb wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turn the HN angry mob mode off Funny how, to the rich and powerful, any amongst the lower orders who dare to ask questions are always an 'angry mob'. We’re all in this together That would have been nice. Too late.

Forcing togetherness or “unity” is the best way to turn me away from anything. Silly? No, just suspicious of judgements and valuations like those.

I've never heard a call for "unity" that wasn't really saying "abandon your principles for mine."

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#124

Post by contingencies »

ImaCake wrote: post #121
contingencies wrote: post #115

Almost makes you want to write a dystopian travel advisory. Sydney, 2020. Foreign business people are advised to avoid all non-essential travel to Australia. Local authorities are known to seize devices, force self-isolation, force the installation of applications on mobile devices, inspect luggage and monitor the private telecommunications of travelers. Best practice is not to bring critical information to Australia…

I'm not sure what you are saying adds to this discussion. In fact I think it mis-directs a useful debate. All the things you are complaining about are true literally anywhere else in the developed world right now. In fact, Australia probably has more cause for them then most because self-iso and aggressive contact tracing have done so much to keep us safe so that we can be free sooner rather than later .

Sometimes zoom-out perspective, "right now the whole western world [your point] is like a dystopian Gibson novel" is deeply meaningful.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#125

Post by endual »

jfoster wrote: post #98
discordance wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to trust them more, but the Australian government does not have a good track record with regards to privacy. Two such recent examples: - Australian's browser history is being provided to law enforcement even though that practice was excluded from the original intent and law [0] - Australia passed laws in 2018 which enable law enforcement to compel tech companies into inserting backdoors into their softwa…

Do you honestly believe that they are trying to do something other than stem the harm from this pandemic, or are you just protesting about something they did in the past that you're not happy about? If it is the latter, have you considered the harm that your protest may be doing?

That's a false dichotomy. They could be totally fine with the intent of this app, but concerned with its potential secondary effects. And "something they did in the past" suggests they have stopped doing it.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#126

Post by driverdan »

Daishiman wrote: post #100
discordance wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to trust them more, but the Australian government does not have a good track record with regards to privacy. Two such recent examples: - Australian's browser history is being provided to law enforcement even though that practice was excluded from the original intent and law [0] - Australia passed laws in 2018 which enable law enforcement to compel tech companies into inserting backdoors into their softwa…

The Australian government is not a single monolothic institution. It's a set of hundreds of thousands of people with different agendas and intentions. You cannot assign singular agency to the entire government; rather we have to go case-by-case to understand the implications of programs like these.

That makes it worse. A well-intentioned, well-meaning government org could create something with proper privacy controls and then another part of the government with worse intentions could get their hands on the data.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#127

Post by ACow_Adonis »

Fargren wrote: post #108
godelski wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can choose to get the virus - but that’s a pretty silly choice IMHO. And if you do, please stay home and don’t give it to anyone else. I don't think this is unreasonable. Most people on HN are under 65 and thus will only get mild symptoms and likely just be out for a few days. Considering we're all probably working remotely, it is also easy to not infect others. Alternatively, a government overreach can last de…

> Most people on HN are under 65 and thus will only get mild symptoms and likely just be out for a few days. This is the most likely case for people how are not vulnerable, but by no means a sure thing. Plenty of people without preexisting conditions have died or had to be hospitalized for days or weeks. Data is a bit difficult to filter, but as an example 4.5% of deaths in NY are from the 18-44 age group[1]. Presuma…

Understand I'm replying not because I think people should necessarily want/try to infect themselves with the virus, but because I'm against spreading misinformation and a misuse of statistics.

Australia is approaching 100 deaths and has several thousand confirmed cases through more widespread testing than new York, doing so at a higher and wider rate than New York who's stats/testing and medical regime show signs of severe failure/ problems.

Australia is yet to record a covid death under 40, and the one we have under 50 was technically a foreigner on a cruise ship.

All evidence from sources I'm familiar with that include widespread testing, good statistics and a healthy population point to a sub 0.2% for healthy young (young defined as sub 40 say, no comorbidities).

Now that being said, what I have seen repeatedly is a misclassification of sedentary young people with worrying lifestyle choices (think overweight/ smokers) as thinking of themselves as healthy with no comorbidities. Especially in some parts of the US, you can't think of yourself as healthy just because you live/look like everyone else.

And obviously, death rates in individual parts of the world will tend to be a function of age distribution, underlying health conditions, medical access, communication and the ability to rest and recuperate.

I personally wouldn't infect myself (the same way I wouldn't ride a motorcycle as my chosen mode of transport), but the relative risks and who the disease targets with mortalities should be better understood, and I'm not supportive of propaganda telling young people they're comparably at risk. They aren't.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#128

Post by eskaytwo »

pfortuny wrote: post #78
lysp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. The Aus Gov - especially the current one is massively lacking in trust. Encryption laws, metadata laws. Scope creep on metadata access (ie local councils, horse racing bodies). Lack of transparent reporting when these laws are in use. Raids on journalists. Not to mention their lack of transparency over bushfires, sports grants, angus taylor's family connections with mining / paying $90m? for water to as…

You may be right (probably are, as I am from Spain). But you should not focus on this specific government: the dangers of overstepping are great whatever the color or the chirality or even the deeds of a government.

This specific government are the ones releasing the app and telling people to “trust us”.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#129

Post by crispinb »

dang wrote: post #85
crispinb wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turn the HN angry mob mode off Funny how, to the rich and powerful, any amongst the lower orders who dare to ask questions are always an 'angry mob'. We’re all in this together That would have been nice. Too late.

Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN, regardless of how provocative another comment was or you feel it was. I can understand how that bit could have rubbed some commenters the wrong way (it affected me that way too), but confirming the point is not a good way to respond to it. By HN standards, let alone internet standards, the thread was unusually mild. Of course that provocation made it angrier, but I'm sur…

Unintentional? Are you blind? Nah, just a member of the elite boys club. Bye.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#130

Post by missosoup »

mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

This attitude is anti-democratic and harmful. Please stop.

> They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you.

Extreme urgency is the perfect justification for governments to destroy the rights of the constituents. Never let a crisis go to waste as they say. Right now is exactly the time to be watching everything the government does with a lens of critical analysis.

> Commend the government on some smart privacy and security choices

The government has passed laws that make these choices irrelevant and has a history of botching anything to do with data/privacy even when well intentioned. This government has one of the worst privacy positions in the entire developed world. No one should be commending them for this.

> When asked by non technical people “Should I install this app? Is my data / privacy safe? Is it true it doesn’t track my location?” - say “Yes” and help them understand. Fight the misinformation.

Saying yes to those questions would be disinformation. The answer is maybe at best, probably not.

You sound like you have best intentions in your mind, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Under existing laws, the data and privacy of anyone who downloads this app is NOT safe. If the government is truly well intentioned and wants to help, they need to roll back the insane sweeping anti-privacy laws they rushed through while ignoring the constituents. What you're calling 'HN angry mob mode' is simply these same constituents having the natural, rational reaction to the actions of our government that border on totalitarian. It's not the fault of the constituents, it's the logical outcome of the government's actions. Turning it around like you did is nothing short of victim-blaming.

I'm not going to cover up the sins of this administration by lying to my non-technical friends about the real dangers associated with this app like you ask, sorry.

The irony is that due to public mistrust in the government due to things like AABill, more people may die now than the various agencies ever saved through the systemic destruction of domestic privacy in the name of anti-terrorism or saving the children or whatever other nebulous excuse. Maybe AFP and co can stop their unilateral self-righteous anti-privacy rampage and actually think about the greater good in light of this?

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