How rich kids already won the career game • Hacker News Board

Re: How rich kids already won the career game

#201

Post by johngalt » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 9:56 PM UTC

gamble wrote: post #169

johngalt wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A rich child has a much higher standard to live up to, and much more to lose. If I'm an eight figure trust fund kid and I screw up bad I end up being middle class. If I'm middle class and screw up I end up middle class.

> If I'm middle class and screw up I end up middle class. No, you end up working a crappy part time job at a call center with no benefits and no future, desperately trying to convince yourself that you're still middle class because you work a telephone instead of a mop.

So the real issue here is that everyone wants to be "better". It's not about rich people, it's that you think you're too good to clean things for a living. In your view, who deserves to work that mop?

There is nothing wrong with working a mop. Median Janitor salary is $25k, if you and your wife are both janitors, you have a $50k/yr household. You can pay the bills and give your family a middle class lifestyle. Probably still better than the life you were raised in.

Conversely a child of wealth that loses it all will have a significantly more difficult time giving his children the same life that he had. Someone who has a lot also has more to lose.

Re: How rich kids already won the career game

#202

Post by billybob » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 10:00 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #92

btipling wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The public interest may not be in the public's interest. Inequality may not always be a bad thing. The focus shouldn't be on the gap between the haves and have nots, the focus should be on the dire situation of the poor without worrying about the lives of those better off.

What bothers me is that the only solution to bridge the "income inequality" is to take money from the rich and just give it to the poor. Beyond the mentally and physically unable (which is a very low percentage), poverty is a result of poor life choices. This is what freedom gives us: the ability to succeed or fall flat on our ass due to our own choices, which is why we will always have poverty in our current system.

"...poverty is a result of poor life choices."

This is an overgeneralization. All of us make choices based on our perception of the world. It matters very much whether, like me, you were raised by educated people, being told "you can do anything," being read to and told to practice music and sent to church and given responsible role models and generally expected to achieve, or whether you had a single mom who was always drunk, didn't care if you skipped school or stayed out all night, and basically expected you to end up in jail like your father, whom you never knew.

It also matters whether you grow up in a place where you're told a person can bootstrap their way to wealth or one where you have to pay bribes at every turn.

All of us make bad choices. I don't exercise, even though I know I should. The guy down the street doesn't stop drinking before work, even though he knows he should. Both of us are slightly underperforming our expectations. But where did we get those expectations?

We are responsible for what we do, but it's wrong to pretend that everyone starts on even footing.

Re: How rich kids already won the career game

#203

Post by krschultz » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 10:03 PM UTC

johngalt wrote: post #191

apsec112 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow , that's a slanted view of the world! Outside of the software industry, which is a tiny (~1%) portion of the economy, what has changed since 1995? Suppose you're an investment banker, and you hate your boss, as most investment bankers do. Want to start your own investment bank? How? You need to have connections to upper management at lots and lots of companies, so you can arrange deals. And very few people have t…

Investment banker: Work hard where you're at and then steal the client list to go start your own shop. If you're really better than the boss you hate people will flock to you. Make sure the clients see you as a go-getter. That investment shop will have every banker arguing that they deserve a gigantic compensation package. Add's a lot of overhead that you won't have starting out. Accounting: Like most professional se…

Or if your dad is super rich, he can just give you enough enough money to start your own hedge fund at 25. Connections beat skill more often than we'd like to admit.

Sadly, this is not a hypothetical. I belong to a yacht club with more than 25-30 y/o living this exact dream.

Re: How rich kids already won the career game

#204

Post by mseebach » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 10:05 PM UTC

zeemonkee wrote: post #123

yummyfajitas wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern logistics (c.f. Walmart) is a hugely significant technological breakthrough, and is arguably the foundation of our modern economy. It's not obvious to consumers because it happened behind the scenes, but don't neglect it's significance.

Modern logistics developed mainly during the Second World War and post-war period, along with the computer revolution. My point is however that the last few decades have seen a refinement of more revolutionary changes in the first half of the twentieth century. For example, from 1902 - 1960 we went from the Kitty Hawk to the jet passenger plane. From 1960 we went from the jet plane to .... ? We're still flying around…

Show a 1960s jet passenger the price tag on a cheap around-the-world ticket, and his eyes will fall out.

Re: How rich kids already won the career game

#205

Post by warnickr » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 10:06 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #53

ramanujan wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In terms of material wealth Western commerce structures have produced more. High levels of pollution, propping up of corrupt regimes in exchange for access to resources for cheap cost, environmental damage done to poor countries, etc. It is inarguable that all these things have occurred. The point I hope to politely contest is that this is a function of Western commerce structures to a greater degree than other com…

There was a far greater ecological disaster in the former Soviet Union than in the United States. I don't think the comparison is fair since Soviet chemical and gas companies didn't do quite the level of investment in third world countries as American companies did. I think one needs to factor in things like Bhopal, Nigeria delta, etc. when comparing to the Soviet Union. We just shifted the dirty work, literally, to…

"I'm not implying in any way that the Soviet Union was a model or that it ought to be emulated. I don't suggest communism as practiced by the Warsaw Pact nations was better than capitalism."

I would take it a step further and say that it was inferior in almost every way. There are individuals and organizations that behave with "brutal authority" in every society, but when it is the government and they have absolute (unchecked) power, then it is far worse.

Re: How rich kids already won the career game

#206

Post by TheEzEzz » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 10:07 PM UTC

danssig wrote: post #133

zeemonkee wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know if you've noticed but these two are having some very large impact in the world right now. Dictators of 30 and 40 years are being cast off. I'm sure the Jacobins had a totally cool Facebook page. > Now you could say that even if we ever managed to get to a utopia state more greedy people will just show up but I would counter argue that e.g. Alexander the great wouldn't have gotten off the ground if peop…

>That has to be the funniest thing I've read all day. If only poor King Darius III had a Twitter account. So you think that if the whole world would have been aware of what was happening they would have just sat back and watched? I think they would have all banded together to fight him at once rather than be picked off one at a time.

There's a strong motive to defect from cooperation, unfortunately. If 100 nations are discussing banding together to defend themselves, and everyone realizes it will only take 50 nations to repel an attack, then there is going to be a very strong incentive to be a free riding country.

Re: How rich kids already won the career game

#207

Post by johngalt » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 10:09 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #192

johngalt wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investment banker: Work hard where you're at and then steal the client list to go start your own shop. If you're really better than the boss you hate people will flock to you. Make sure the clients see you as a go-getter. That investment shop will have every banker arguing that they deserve a gigantic compensation package. Add's a lot of overhead that you won't have starting out. Accounting: Like most professional se…

"Investment banker: Work hard where you're at and then steal the client list to go start your own shop." That's actually the one action where a non-compete is universally and trivially enforceable in all 50 states. As I understand it, IANAL. Additionally, it's unethical if you believe in that sort of thing. So, bad idea. Not sure what communism has to do with anything. At all.

If you sign a non-compete, are you surprised that it's difficult to go out and found a competing organization? If you can't manage starting your own investment firm, then you apply what you've learned as a banker to a different slice of the pie. Fundamentally you're looking at ways it won't work rather than looking at ways it can work.

"Not sure what communism has to do with anything. At all." The article? Specifically mentioned communism as the solution to these problems? If you're pointing to regulation as a barrier to entry then what the article recommends wouldn't help.

EDIT: Excuse me it advocates the universal solidarity of social justice to promote the overthrow of capitalism in the name of socialism whew, good thing I caught that. Someone could have confused socialism with communism.

Re: How rich kids already won the career game

#208

Post by tomkarlo » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 10:09 PM UTC

johngalt wrote: post #191

apsec112 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow , that's a slanted view of the world! Outside of the software industry, which is a tiny (~1%) portion of the economy, what has changed since 1995? Suppose you're an investment banker, and you hate your boss, as most investment bankers do. Want to start your own investment bank? How? You need to have connections to upper management at lots and lots of companies, so you can arrange deals. And very few people have t…

Investment banker: Work hard where you're at and then steal the client list to go start your own shop. If you're really better than the boss you hate people will flock to you. Make sure the clients see you as a go-getter. That investment shop will have every banker arguing that they deserve a gigantic compensation package. Add's a lot of overhead that you won't have starting out. Accounting: Like most professional se…

One reason you don't see bankers doing that is that their comp is already set to about 1/2 the revenue they bring in. (Banks target to have 50% of their banking revenue go to salaries.) Plus, you get reduced income volatility by pooling risk with the other bankers. So maybe they give up 10% of your income of $1MM plus, but they also don't have years when you make zero (and I've seen Managing Directors at a bank go a full year without closing a deal that generates revenue - it can take years to close an M&A or equity deal depending on the client.)

It's such a good deal that while you see bankers jumping from one big bank to another to improve their deal, you rarely see them starting a new bank.

Re: How rich kids already won the career game

#209

Post by johngalt » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 10:18 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #203

johngalt wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investment banker: Work hard where you're at and then steal the client list to go start your own shop. If you're really better than the boss you hate people will flock to you. Make sure the clients see you as a go-getter. That investment shop will have every banker arguing that they deserve a gigantic compensation package. Add's a lot of overhead that you won't have starting out. Accounting: Like most professional se…

Or if your dad is super rich, he can just give you enough enough money to start your own hedge fund at 25. Connections beat skill more often than we'd like to admit. Sadly, this is not a hypothetical. I belong to a yacht club with more than 25-30 y/o living this exact dream.

Ok, so build your connections working as a banker?

People will like or dislike you for a number of reasons/bias. I once had a high dollar investment customer that would only deal with me because of my attitude. Others that refused to deal with me because of my attitude. Trying to say that there is one "right" way to act and it only comes with money just isn't accurate. One of the first things you realize with banking is how varied or even normal rich people are.

There is no one shibboleth used to filter out the people that don't belong. Judgementally approaching them, and acting like they are all elitist exclusionary cronies will make them happily oblige your fantasy.

Re: How rich kids already won the career game

#210

Post by jacques_chester » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 10:19 PM UTC

PakG1 wrote: post #124

danssig wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The internet and mobile phone are about the only significant technological breakthroughs in my lifetime I don't know if you've noticed but these two are having some very large impact in the world right now. Dictators of 30 and 40 years are being cast off. >Well, we do have millenia of recorded history. Social mores may change, human nature less so. I think that's a pretty skewed view of history. Another way to see i…

>> I don't know if you've noticed but these two are having some very large impact in the world right now. Dictators of 30 and 40 years are being cast off. Unfortunately, revolutions are nothing new. Bigger revolutions happened in the past quite impactfully without such technologies. These technologies perhaps add benefit in the arms race to better organize against government's controls for infrastructure, institution…

> Unfortunately, revolutions are nothing new. Bigger revolutions happened in the past quite impactfully without such technologies.

3 major drivers of the European revolutions of the 1840s (the longest period of sustained, international revolutions in history) were newspapers, trains and telegraphs. Like today's internet, they were loosely controlled by the state. Information could pass from capital to capital within hours, sometimes within minutes.

The key dynamic is not the medium of transmission; it is whether the state has yet managed to control it.