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Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

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Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#71

Post by hmwhy »

NewLogic wrote: post #29
hmwhy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in a casual virtual meeting with a group of highly educated audience last week, and the question of whether or not we will install the app came up. As far as I know none of them has a background in computer science or anything related to software development. At least a third of the group immediately said that the won't install the app exactly for the “American company Amazon’s Servers” reason. I hadn't researc…

The concerns are still very much valid no matter region or GovCloud. What protects Australian citizens from powers granted to the US intelligence machine via the Patriot Act?

Agreed. I care about privacy very much, and I do as much as I can to protect it with what little technical knowledge I have—I think most people I know would consider me an alarmist when it comes to protecting myself from "bad" things.

I think the point I failed to point point clearly earlier is that this is the first, if not one of the firsts, pandemic where we are well-connected enough to properly attempt the tracking app(s) proposed.

At the end of the day, would it not depend on what data (particularly those that are identifying, if any) is stored, whether or not other infrastructures that meet compliance requirements are readily available, if there are reliable contractors that already know these other infrastructures and can deliver quickly, etc.? And that's what I wanted to throw out there: I consider myself very slightly more knowledgeable in these things that are out of my domain expertise compared to my colleagues, and I still find it very difficult to make an informed decision.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#72

Post by dragonsky »

neximo64 wrote: post #55
mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

How do you realistically use this app if you have to keep it open. You and everyone else are so focussed on convincing everyone that it’s safe, etc and totally ignoring the practical aspects of it. For someone to have the app open for 15 mins within 1.5m all day.. how will that be done, it requires a large conscious commitment. You might as well just ask the person who is in your personal space for 15 consecutive min…

This is my problem with the app. The only reason I'm going to be in public for a 15 minute period at the moment is either being on or waiting for public transport or eating in a food court. In those cases I'm going to be using my phone to browse the net or watch a video meaning that this app won't be functional. At least on iOS, so what is the point?

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#73

Post by vorpalhex »

mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

My recommendation is that when a non-technical person asks you a question, especially if that person is a friend, is to not lie. To tell them the app preserves their privacy without seeing the source is a lie. The truth is "I don't know".

It is not normal to clean code before releasing it. That would suggest the code either has technical flaws or other deeply rooted problems that you are not comfortable releasing. That's a warning sign, not normal.

We may be in this together but do not assume this is a gesture of good will towards the world. It may be, or it may be a gross invasion of civil rights, and we need to be studious in our analysis to make those determinations on an ongoing basis. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Calling everyone here an angry mob and waving off valid concerns by sticking your head in the sand is naive, not mature or brave. Fear is a great tool of oppressors.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#74

Post by m4rtink »

metta2uall wrote: post #62
mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

IMHO, the fact that they app is unobfuscated and can thus be easily decompiled is even better than released source code since one can't be sure that the released source code truly matches the actual build in the app store (unless they also go to the effort of having 'reproducible builds' - which would be quite impressive). Also it's good to keep in perspective that the 'government' can already track people to a great…

IIRC, Fdroid rebuilds all the Android apps they host from source so they can be sure their source really matches the app. Actually, this is also what all good Linux distros do with all their software.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#75

Post by basilgohar »

mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

tl;dr Please trust these proven untrustworthy entities because they say it's good for you.

I think the HN privacy concern is well placed. They are not advocating covering our ears and screaming to ignore the pandemic, just that this phone-based contact-tracing plan has all the makes of a bad idea. It's the perfect way to shift the needle further towards acceptance of mass contact tracking. These institutions have all shown us if we give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

Meanwhile, experts still say this is no substitute for proper, interview-based contact tracing, so it's almost a moot effort anyway.

My most charitable interpretation is that Google and Apple are scrambling for SOMETHING to do with their respective holds on the mobile market, and this is something. It still doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#76

Post by qqssccfftt »

mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

"Stop critiquing"

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#77

Post by timkam »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #24
timkam wrote: post #3

I would assume many GPL-licensed applications are GPL non-compliant. From a user's perspective, what are the most relevant problems when this is the case? (Excluding problems of philosophical nature that only free software geeks care about. No intention to be disrespectful; but the more practical the problems, the more likely it is that ordinary users can relate to them.)

These "problems of philosophical nature that only free software geeks care about" however, tend to quickly have very practical consequences, that many people care about, though. Only that many do not realize, that their problems would not have happened, if they had used free software. Most people are not even aware what free software means or that it exists. So I would not mix the two issues of a problem being a real…

It's hard to disagree with the statements you make in this comment, but this does not answer my question. To say "free software is important" is one thing; another thing is to say "if a GPL-licensed software includes a closed-source dependency, this is a news-breaking problem". Considering the deep dependency trees many applications have, I would assume incompatible licenses in an app or library, and yes--even closed source dependencies in GPL-licensed applications--is a problem that occurs rather frequently. I think there is a generic problem at the intersection of license management and dependency management. COVIDSafe is just an example of this, and given the prevalence of these issues, I think it is in itself not particularly newsworthy.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#78

Post by pfortuny »

lysp wrote: post #66
NewLogic wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more a stand on principles against governments rather than if the app is actually malicious in nature. People are rightly making a stand that a project of this nature should require at the bare minimum for source code to release concurrently with protection laws. Blame successive governments if individuals aren't overly welcoming to putting their blind faith in promises of a government that has let them down…

Exactly this. The Aus Gov - especially the current one is massively lacking in trust. Encryption laws, metadata laws. Scope creep on metadata access (ie local councils, horse racing bodies). Lack of transparent reporting when these laws are in use. Raids on journalists. Not to mention their lack of transparency over bushfires, sports grants, angus taylor's family connections with mining / paying $90m? for water to as…

You may be right (probably are, as I am from Spain).

But you should not focus on this specific government: the dangers of overstepping are great whatever the color or the chirality or even the deeds of a government.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#79

Post by pfortuny »

crispinb wrote: post #60
mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

Turn the HN angry mob mode off Funny how, to the rich and powerful, any amongst the lower orders who dare to ask questions are always an 'angry mob'. We’re all in this together That would have been nice. Too late.

Forcing togetherness or “unity” is the best way to turn me away from anything.

Silly? No, just suspicious of judgements and valuations like those.

Re: Dissection of COVIDSafe (Android): Australian government's contact tracing app

#80

Post by salan781 »

mcannon wrote: post #35

I believe the government, PM and various ministers have said the code will be released. My sources also say exactly the same. They’re obviously operating with extreme urgency to get the app out. For you. Give them a few weeks to clean up code and release it (which is very normal) - but in the meantime, here are some tips: - Turn the HN angry mob mode off - it’s not helpful. We’re all in this together. - Commend the g…

Even if the government has the best intentions in this instance, it doesn’t matter. They have already created a set of laws that clearly dictate that this app and this data can be used how ever intelligence communities desire.

They have burned all goodwill and trust with the public. It doesn’t matter what they say today unless they repeal AABill etc. Otherwise they’re just saying empty words.

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