I'm perplexed by the comments here. Some cities have seen greater business increases on pedestrian and bike converted through-ways because people in cars weren't just passing by. Bikers and pedestrians stopped and shopped in the areas they were traveling through. I, for one, look forward to making a choice to move to a place where I can live car-free and hope more cities accelerate plans like this.
American cities are not capable of running good public transit because they mostly use it as a combination of a jobs program and a poor-people access program. I was car-free for seven years in San Francisco (supposedly one of the relatively high performers) but my standard of living jumped significantly after I bought my car. Overall, I think I might even come out ahead. I don't think I'm going to take public transit…
Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus
151–160 of 246 posts
Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think some people are commenting from a perspective of a society/environment where a car is basically mandatory, where you cannot really go anywhere or do anything without a car, or where it is at least hopelessly cumbersome to use public transit and dangerous to ride a bicycle. Not just in this discussion, but whenever the subject of transportation and public transit come up. If you asked me ~10 years ago, I could…
Why not have both!? Surely you can have city centres (especially old towns) without cars and people living in suburbs, with special needs or whatever to own a car. I'd love to drive to a city centre and then have a walk without the traffic noise! I'd hate taking 90 minutes of bus instead of 20 minute drive.
Most of them are deliberately deprived of decent public transit, because a segment of people don't want buses and especially don't want trains in/near their neighborhood. The most common explanation I've heard is that public transit attracts the homeless, the poor and criminals.
A lot of suburbs are even designed to prevent walkability for the same reasons, leaving out logical shortcut footpaths and bike paths between streets and cul-de-sacs.
This obviously speaks to a whole host of societal problems and paranoia, to be honest.
With a good local train network with stops in every neighborhood, you could just leave the car at home and not have to worry about parking in the city.
Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus
#153I'm perplexed by the comments here. Some cities have seen greater business increases on pedestrian and bike converted through-ways because people in cars weren't just passing by. Bikers and pedestrians stopped and shopped in the areas they were traveling through. I, for one, look forward to making a choice to move to a place where I can live car-free and hope more cities accelerate plans like this.
American cities are not capable of running good public transit because they mostly use it as a combination of a jobs program and a poor-people access program. I was car-free for seven years in San Francisco (supposedly one of the relatively high performers) but my standard of living jumped significantly after I bought my car. Overall, I think I might even come out ahead. I don't think I'm going to take public transit…
This says a lot. (Only transport which is okay without arrival times is one which has 5 min or less frequency)
Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus
#154I'm perplexed by the comments here. Some cities have seen greater business increases on pedestrian and bike converted through-ways because people in cars weren't just passing by. Bikers and pedestrians stopped and shopped in the areas they were traveling through. I, for one, look forward to making a choice to move to a place where I can live car-free and hope more cities accelerate plans like this.
American cities are not capable of running good public transit because they mostly use it as a combination of a jobs program and a poor-people access program. I was car-free for seven years in San Francisco (supposedly one of the relatively high performers) but my standard of living jumped significantly after I bought my car. Overall, I think I might even come out ahead. I don't think I'm going to take public transit…
It's just so easy to get a car in SF whenever you need it for a few bucks -- sometimes in 15 minute increments.
Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus
#155The current city doesn't work anyway. A lot of our development patterns were born of seeds planted in the 1950s during an era when the nuclear family -- with a male breadwinner, female homemaker and 2.5 kids -- was the assumed standard basic "economic unit" and one male breadwinner provided adequate money, healthcare benefits, etc for multiple other people. Suburbs grew out of the idea of a separation of the public a…
This is US-centric though. The notion of downtown vs. suburbia is the complete opposite in Europe for example, and in many other parts of the world as well. I remember as a kid learning English and learning about the US that it was amazing to me that "downtown" was considered low status and "suburbs" were affluent. Visiting, I was almost amazed to see downtown Minneapolis almost completely deserted on a Friday evening. It made me think of "28 Days Later". In Europe you'll mostly see downtown being the historical, beautiful and expensive part of town while some suburbs are post-war, concrete blocks of public housing.
> So that's where we need to start. And it is very much bound up with car ownership and car use because the single family detached house in the suburbs assumes you have a car and assumes a family of five only needs one car.
It seems to me that the odd thing, or perhaps not so odd when you consider the era they were built in mostly, is that these suburbs completely lack any city planning in terms of public transporation. As you say, it's a requirement to have a car to even get in and out of the place. The implications of this are many, and often quite weird seen with my eyes -- for example, teenagers are essentially "contained" until they get their own car, or know someone who does. You can't go out drinking without a car because there's no commercial area in the immediate vicinity. But anyway, since these suburbs are already built, couldn't this be resolved relatively easily by building public transport to the biggest suburbs? You wouldn't have to change the suburbs so much as the transport network around them, and perhaps add some local commercial areas to make them slightly more self sustaining.
Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'd love to drive to a city centre and then have a walk without the traffic noise There's a huge inherent contradiction here though: You are creating the very problem you want to escape from for everyone along your path of travel. land tends to be quite expensive in the city center, and parking is not a good use of it. Are you willing to spend $50 to park your car there to drive to the city center?
Kinda agree but thats a model that works for many places that switched to car free centre. In many cases parking lots already exist in outskirts of the centre. Completely car free city is a pipe dream. Diversity is good.
Cars need special roadways with expensive construction methods, maintenance, signaling and provisions for parking their bulk.
This takes up huge amounts of space that could have been used for waking streets, bike paths and attentive urban spaces, instead of large expanses of boring black asphalt.
Ask a shop owner whether she would rather have thousands of people in cars driving by her store and not even look at it, or hundreds of pedestrians who stop and look at her display windows.
Ask a cafe owner whether he would prefer to have his outside seating right next to a major thoroughfare, or on a busy walking street.
Cars actively make environments hostile and uninviting to people.
Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
American cities are not capable of running good public transit because they mostly use it as a combination of a jobs program and a poor-people access program. I was car-free for seven years in San Francisco (supposedly one of the relatively high performers) but my standard of living jumped significantly after I bought my car. Overall, I think I might even come out ahead. I don't think I'm going to take public transit…
Maybe you can explain what BART and Muni is for those of us that don't live in your local area?
1. Caltrain which connects downtown SF to San Jose and Gilroy, notably bypassing both SFO and SJC airport [1]. This is a low frequency, mid-long distance commuter rail link that runs almost exclusively outside SF.
2. BART which connects SF to the East Bay, notably serving both SFO and OAK [2]. This is a medium frequency, larger train - think a hybrid of commuter and light rail. It's fast, long trains that run medium distances.
3. Muni Metro which is the SF subway and light-rail service. In the downtown corridor, all the major stations (from Civic Center to the Embarcadero) overlap with BART, but the trains continue out west into the Sunset [3]. This is high-ish frequency, smaller trains that (outside the downtown corridor) run overland.
[1] http://www.caltrain.com/stations/systemmap.html
Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus
#158Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus
#159My family (child, spouse) and I live car free in Oslo, Norway. It’s amazing. We used to own two vehicles when we lived in the States. I did take public transportation during the week, but still had to drive almost everywhere else. When everything is designed around cars, it can be extremely difficult to try and go without. Oslo was mostly built before cars, so roads are smaller and highways go below or around the cit…
Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus
#160This seems really short-sited given the reality of pandemics. Walking or biking or high utilization of public transport implies high density. In a pandemic, the more people you encounter, the higher the chance of contracting the disease. Cars decrease density by increasing the effective area where people can work/shop/live. The area accessible grows as the square of the distance you can travel. In addition, in a car,…
Walking or biking does not always imply high density! On the other hand, public transportation can easily get crowded. That is one reason why European cities are moving away from public transportation in favour of bikes, scooters and so on. Finally, I agree that it would be better to encourage car usage during a pandemic. One reasonable reason not to do so is that parking spots are limited.
Right, and yet it will get parroted each time the subject surfaces here (i.e. twice a week).
I never had a car. At the moment, I live in a municipality of less than 750 inhabitants. I've lived in small towns of less than 4000 inhabitants, in areas below 1 inhab. / km². I've never had a problem, everything has always been 1 or 2 minutes away with a bike, or less than 10 minutes by foot. In such places, the farthest possible shop would be a mile away, at worst. By definition, we might say! since the urban area doesn't spread farther.
Density is not needed and it often doesn't makes things better.
In dense areas, things are sometimes closer (which improves walkability, but has little effect or bikability), sometimes not. But everything is slower. Not only cars, but also cycling and walking. Cycling: because of all the cross-roads every 100 yards, with traffic lights or without, because of the need of taking care of the erratic behaviour of pedestrians, of parked cars, of cars going in and out of parking slots, because of traffic jams or traffic density causing irregular pacing, etc. Walking, the same: traffic lights again, erratic movements on the pavement, being limited to pavement and a very limited number of crossings, which lengthen the route. I can ride over 10 km and visit 3 villages in the countryside, in the same time I needed to ride 5 km in a city (not even in the centre of the centre).
Hell, American suburbs should be perfect for cyclability, if not for walkability. Either the hard grid type with its huge number of streets/lanes/alleys every 100 yards with very very low car traffic; or the smooth shaped housing estate suburbia with its super-wide and empty streets; even on inter-blocks streets, the car traffic is much less dense than in Europe because those streets/roads are 3 or 4 times as wide as European streets/roads with similar role! Yes, there isn't a small shop at every street corner of American suburbia, but even if a supermarket/mall world, almost of the suburban area is with 1 mile or 2 of distance of one of those supermarket or mall, which is perfect biking distance; in most cases you'll have something half-a-mile away from home. Yes, there are also places where people chose to build a fancy house in a fancy estate on a hill-side, which make everything harder, but the bulk of suburban area is not like that.
I am not advocating for urban sprawl, I just say that arguing that walking and especially cycling would be only possible in dense areas is plain wrong: both suburbs and countryside small towns and villages can be plenty bikable.