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Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

citylab.com

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Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#141

Post by icebraining »

ourlordcaffeine wrote: post #21
Mirioron wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how I understood it as well. This idea seems to be gaining popularity in a lot of places. I wonder how much this is going to cost their local economy in the long-term.

Based on existing experience in Europe, it will significantly bolster local economies, as walkers and bikers often go into shops, often unplanned as they just saw an interesting shop during their journey. Net result was a big increase in purchases from brick and mortar stores.

What's the existing experience in Europe that cut down both on cars and on public transport?

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#142

Post by pimeys »

acd wrote: post #113

I hope we remove cars from city centers in Europe and replace them with more bike lanes and public transport. Ie the small particle pollution from cars is making pedestrians and cyclist sick. I hope we put car parking centers outside the city center and offer good inbound public / private transport. I would say clean air is an example of Tragedy of the commons, where the pollution is an externalized cost. https://en.…

As an asthmatic person, I hope this too. Berlin is quite bad on some streets, especially due to people's love for diesel cars.

This also includes trucks and diesel buses.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#143

Post by lbeltrame »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #136
lbeltrame wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the city plans to maintain its metro system’s capacity at less than two-thirds of its pre-pandemic activity. As a resident of Milan, I find this rather displeasing. I don't own a car (and have no plans to own one), and I exclusively depend on the metro + trains to get to work, which is too far away for serious walking or even cycling. FTR: it's actually far easier to go there (at least from where I live) with publi…

Also, what happens if it rains? That is a cultural dislike. Seriously. I was born in the states - Indiana. NO one walked when it rained unless you were poor. When you did walk, you probably had an umbrella. Being female meant that sometimes, people would offer me rides randomly. I moved to Trondheim, Norway. There is a saying here - "There is no bad weather, only bad clothes". Which, you know, is only half correct. I…

Some back of envelope estimates: 75 minutes of walking to get to the workplace. Approximately 50 minutes if I go via bicycle (directions are not straightforward for many reasons). This is regardless of weather and/or traffic if on the road. 30-40 minutes if I go via metro + train (the actual trips take 10ish minutes each).

Unless forced to do differently, the most efficient choice is evident. I'm also lucky enough to live inside the city. Commuters that can't work from home have it even rougher, since they live outside and they take up to an hour or more with public transport.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#144

Post by _0w8t »

Barrin92 wrote: post #45
jasonv wrote: post #11

I'm perplexed by the comments here. Some cities have seen greater business increases on pedestrian and bike converted through-ways because people in cars weren't just passing by. Bikers and pedestrians stopped and shopped in the areas they were traveling through. I, for one, look forward to making a choice to move to a place where I can live car-free and hope more cities accelerate plans like this.

I never even got a drivers license and have lived just fine so I'm also always shocked by the comments here in transport-related threads when people talk about not having a car as if this is somehow a fantasy utopian vision. And this also I might add includes families with children. While I don't have any I know a lot of parents who don't rely on cars either.

I was shocked by lack of public transport in Houston when I visited a friend there in 2008. He warned me to rent a car in the airport, but still it was unbelievable by European standards. And people in richer suburbs actively opposed any public transport claiming it just brings crime. And forget walking. In many cases one cannot legally reach some areas by feet.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#145

Post by kortilla »

chriswphoto wrote: post #36
kortilla wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shitty quote. Induced demand is a lazy intellectual concept that fails to realize that congestion follows a standard supply and demand curve and the price is just being hidden because the monetary cost is usually free for everyone so it’s all based on time cost. So you add supply, you capture more of the demand that has been there at a lower cost. You didn’t induce shit. You will eventually add enough supply that eve…

Because we don’t charge for roads, users “pay” in congestion delays, so as we widen roads more drivers can use the road at the same “price” measured in minutes of delay. In some cases You might say that increased capacity induced hesitant drivers to drive.

Yes, decreasing the cost to capture more of the demand curve doesn’t need a special term. That’s why “induced demand” is so dumb. The demand was always there, the busy road was just too high a cost.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#147

Post by dvcrn »

ekianjo wrote: post #93
cafxx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Tokyo and I can assure you that living car-free is lovely. I used to love driving, then moved here and stopped caring altogether when I realized that public transport here is significantly faster (and cheaper) than using your car to go from point A to point B.

> I live in Tokyo and I can assure you that living car-free is lovely So you really enjoy packed subways that make you feel like cattle pretty much every time of the day? Sorry but Tokyo is the best example of "best in class public transport" being completely over capacity for the amount of people they have to transport every day.

Living in Tokyo as well and yeah, the subway is a nightmare. It's GOOD, gets you everywhere pretty fast but for daily morning commuting - nah. Taking an overcrowded train every day squeezed into heaps of people that all don't want to be there gets very depressing with enough repetition cycles. A good reminder of how insignificant everything is. I am glad I have flex time and can avoid peak-time trains.

But Tokyo is also very bicycle-friendly with not many aggressive drivers (ignoring taxis), so that's my pick to get around.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#148

Post by kortilla »

matchbok wrote: post #67
kortilla wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shitty quote. Induced demand is a lazy intellectual concept that fails to realize that congestion follows a standard supply and demand curve and the price is just being hidden because the monetary cost is usually free for everyone so it’s all based on time cost. So you add supply, you capture more of the demand that has been there at a lower cost. You didn’t induce shit. You will eventually add enough supply that eve…

It still doesn't work, because the places where the roads ultimately end up, cities, cannot add more roads. It has to stop somewhere.

But they can add more roads via tunnels, bridges, etc. People just don’t want to pay the cost but instead of just saying that they handwave with stupid crap like “induced demand” to pretend it’s an intractable problem.

Also, tons of people give no fucks about going to the city. It’s not some grand final destination. Some of the worst congestion points in the Bay Area aren’t anywhere near dense city.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#149

Post by hnarn »

lnsru wrote: post #146

It’s completely wrong discussion. Remote work should be prioritized, so the people don’t need to move to overcrowded cities. Less people in the cities, less problems with their cars and crappy public transport.

Urbanization has been going strong as a trend for more than 100 years and I think it's reasonable to assume it won't stop anytime soon. If that's correct, density in cities will only increase, and most remote workers will not be outside of the city anyway. People enjoy having an entertainment-dense area to be in during the weekends and evenings, and they enjoy being able to go there without taking their car for an hour. So even with remote work, I don't think it does much to alleviate the problems associated with urban density.

Remote work is a great idea for many reasons, if nothing else it lessens unnecessary load on infrastructure systems, but having grown up in Europe with the "public transport mindset" I can't help but feel that a society centered around highways, car ownership and isolated suburbia feels almost a bit dystopian.

I believe the future is in cities, and for cities to work people need to be able to get around efficiently without having to each own a separate car that mostly just stands around taking up space and costing money.

Re: Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coronavirus

#150

Post by arcticbull »

acd wrote: post #113

I hope we remove cars from city centers in Europe and replace them with more bike lanes and public transport. Ie the small particle pollution from cars is making pedestrians and cyclist sick. I hope we put car parking centers outside the city center and offer good inbound public / private transport. I would say clean air is an example of Tragedy of the commons, where the pollution is an externalized cost. https://en.…

Milan plans to reduce metro capacity to about 1/3 permanently. Talk about learning the wrong lessons here, oof.

This feels like one of those near-sighted decisions that leads to tons of negative knock-on effects.

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