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Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

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Re: Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

#241

Post by dnautics »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #239
dnautics wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. Go look at the us constitution, which is not typeset. There are bigger spaces after periods, see article I section 2, lines 3 and 4 for two examples.

That's a weird non-sequitur that has nothing to do with the topic, considering that the Constitution was handwritten, but it's still interesting to read about how things were done in that era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Shallus https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9061831/declaration-of-indepen... So, thanks for the diversion down that particular rabbit hole, I guess.

> The practice [of two spaces after the period] originally came from typesetting

I'm just challenging that assertion, which is commonplace, but there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, many of which you can see with your own eyes.

Re: Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

#242

Post by Gibbon1 »

PunksATawnyFill wrote: post #76
Gibbon1 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to say I know a couple of people that edit and format documents for a living and they hate getting documents with double spaces.

Why?

Because double spaces mess up their formatting tools. So they need to purge them always. If they miss one sometimes it means they need to go back, remove the errant double space and start over. Bonus getting a proof back and the customer put the double spaces back in.

Source: Way way too OCD for me ex-gf.

Re: Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

#243

Post by omnimus »

bottle2 wrote: post #140
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that's why that happened. Typographically, I don't think you can compare the visual effect of an extra period in properly rendered right-justified text with the effect when it's buried in the usual ragged-right default on the web. In the early 90s most monitors didn't have the resolution to handle full justification without making it look like crap. In theory it would have been helpful if there had been enough for…

I don’t know. It sounds like you’re older and smarter than I, but whenever I see two spaces at the end of a sentence, I fix it to make it one space. It looks plain wrong to my brain

And you would be right. There shouldn't be two spaces. It's some old convention from typewriter times. Nowdays space is not fixed width. It's fluid and it's job of the system (browser, graphic editor) to make it right width.

In fact first thing book designer / publisher will do when they get text from author is run it through cleanup script to fix all mistakes and inconsistencies and one of those will be double+ spaces.

Re: Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

#244

Post by CamperBob2 »

dnautics wrote: post #241
CamperBob2 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a weird non-sequitur that has nothing to do with the topic, considering that the Constitution was handwritten, but it's still interesting to read about how things were done in that era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Shallus https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9061831/declaration-of-indepen... So, thanks for the diversion down that particular rabbit hole, I guess.

> The practice [of two spaces after the period] originally came from typesetting I'm just challenging that assertion, which is commonplace, but there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, many of which you can see with your own eyes.

It goes back much further than the late 18th century. This is a decent summary, although a bit short on citations for my liking:

https://thecontractsguy.net/2014/02/02/spacing-after-periods...

   Literally centuries of typesetters and 
   printers believed that a wider space was 
   necessary after a period, particularly 
   in the English-speaking world.  It was 
   the standard since at least the time 
   that William Caslon created the first 
   English typeface in the early 1700s (and 
   part of a tradition that went back further),
   and it was not seriously questioned among 
   English or American typesetters until the 
   1920s or so.
Extra space after each sentence was and is a good idea, whether you're talking about handwritten documents or typeset ones. Typewritten documents arguably benefit the least from the practice. Point being, when single-space advocates say that double-spacing is obsolete and unnecessary because we don't use typewriters anymore, they are just plain wrong.

Re: Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

#245

Post by omnimus »

lostgame wrote: post #226
ken wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we're on the topic of typographical prejudice, I confess that if I see a Microsoft Word document at all, I tend to assume the author is not so technically literate. The intersection of "people I've seen use Word" and "people who know how to write a program" is extremely small.

Beyond LibreOffice, or the privacy-violating Google Docs, can I legitimately ask what word editing software you would suggest as an alternative? I’ve never before head of the use of Microsoft Word as anything but professional. I’m a senior iOS dev, I’ve been in iOS, web development, and more recently AR/VR, I’ve never used anything but, I’ve never been instructed to use anything but, and I’ve also had many a job wher…

I think he is academic and he means something like LaTeX.

There is very little choice for nonprogrammers.

Word is not bad it's just editor. In skilled hands its fine. Actually the biggest typographic problems people make are not really because of Word but because default office paper sizes A4/Letter are too wide for one column. For optimal 60-70 characters per line you either need giant font size or two columns so they put people into quite difficult situation. Why this happened? Typewriters use monospaced fonts that are much wider and we switched to proportional typefaces but paper size stayed.

Re: Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

#246

Post by Groxx »

taeric wrote: post #237
Groxx wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of the book spacing is to save physical space? A fair number of larger / more expensive books that I have on hand, and nearly all non-fiction (especially technical) ones, do have additional space between paragraphs. Potentially all the paperback novels I have within reach do not, though, agreed. They also have far smaller margins, tighter spaces between lines, and thinner paper.

Not sure that matters. My point was that it was a frugal markup. You don't do two spaces because you want more space, per se. You do it to signal a period at the end of a sentence. Similarly, we don't ever start a paragraph with spaces. Very common to indent opening paragraphs, though. Why don't we space at the first sentence? Because we already have a clear marker for that. To that end Word is correct to flag two sp…

If people are double-spacing on a wysiwyg, doesn't that imply it's not frugal markup?

Re: Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

#247

Post by taeric »

Groxx wrote: post #246
taeric wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure that matters. My point was that it was a frugal markup. You don't do two spaces because you want more space, per se. You do it to signal a period at the end of a sentence. Similarly, we don't ever start a paragraph with spaces. Very common to indent opening paragraphs, though. Why don't we space at the first sentence? Because we already have a clear marker for that. To that end Word is correct to flag two sp…

If people are double-spacing on a wysiwyg, doesn't that imply it's not frugal markup?

They are using markup where they shouldn't be. If, in word, I type italic text using stars, that just means I'm wrong in that context. Similarly, if I use escapes, such that I expect \n to add a new line, I'm just wrong. That doesn't make it less useful where it originated.

Edit: I amusingly had to try twice to get the italic text there. Double stars did not bold. I don't know how to escape the stars.

Re: Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

#248

Post by dnautics »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #244
dnautics wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The practice [of two spaces after the period] originally came from typesetting I'm just challenging that assertion, which is commonplace, but there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, many of which you can see with your own eyes.

It goes back much further than the late 18th century. This is a decent summary, although a bit short on citations for my liking: https://thecontractsguy.net/2014/02/02/spacing-after-periods... Literally centuries of typesetters and printers believed that a wider space was necessary after a period, particularly in the English-speaking world. It was the standard since at least the time that William Caslon created the f…

We're agreeing.

Re: Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

#249

Post by hydrox24 »

itronitron wrote: post #139
basicallydan wrote: post #10

This may not seem like a big deal, but consider the effect that such an influential source of “correctness” can have on the general sense of what is correct. Spell checkers like Word’s are responsible for the “z” in British English being demonised. Once upon a time, according to linguist Gretchen McCullen, it was common in British English to use both z and s. But somewhere along the line, automated spell checkers cat…

related story, Brits used to call Soccer Soccer and not Football >> https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/06/wh...

> New Zealand's largest newspaper is deeply conflicted. With the World Cup underway in Brazil, should The New Zealand Herald refer to the "global round-ball game" as "soccer" or "football"? The question has been put to readers, and the readers have spoken. It's "football"—by a wide margin.

Interestingly, if you asked Australians, it would be "soccer" by a wide margin.

Re: Microsoft Word now flags double spaces after a period as errors

#250

Post by dubya »

jefftk wrote: post #103
chispamed wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the person you asked, but I think so. Some fonts also convert “fi” into a character where the letter-spacing is very small and the i loses its point, so there’s definitely a mechanism for letter combination / adaptive spacing.

Converting "fi" into "fi" only requires a lookup table, though fonts can do some pretty fancy things: https://developer.apple.com/fonts/TrueType-Reference-Manual/... Knowing that "Mr. Smith." is intra-sentence but "Me. Smith." is inter-sentence is well beyond what fonts can do, however.

I thought the rule was that ligatures shouldn't cross syllable boundaries. Like the fi in "fine" can be replaced but not the fi in "barfing", so it would need to be a bit more than a lookup table. Or maybe a dictionary-sized lookup table isn't a problem anymore.
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