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I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

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Re: I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

#181

Post by jodrellblank »

mannykannot wrote: post #174
jodrellblank wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I make an off-by-one error, I could have done better. "I did not do X, therefore I could have done X" seems clearly false. How do you know you could have done better? And if you could, why didn't you? And if you actually didn't, what does it usefully mean to say you "could have"? You "could have" done better but didn't, does that imply you didn't want to do better? Is that what you want to communicate - you want…

> How do you know you could have done better? Because it was an error ! I could have done better by doing the thing that fixed the error! I am not a religious person, but the Lord save us from those who have an excuse for everything.

So answer the rest of my questions - you could have, you didn't. Why not? a) you actively wanted to produce bad code. b) you couldn't have. c) other?

> the Lord save us from those who have an excuse for everything.

Lord save us from people who think self-flagellation is at all useful or beneficial to anything. It's status-signalling and nothing else, you're in hypothetically the same situation as someone else (having made a mistake) but you want to claim to be superior because you're feeling the most bad about it?

Re: I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

#182

Post by [deleted] »

jodrellblank wrote: post #181
mannykannot wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you know you could have done better? Because it was an error ! I could have done better by doing the thing that fixed the error! I am not a religious person, but the Lord save us from those who have an excuse for everything.

So answer the rest of my questions - you could have, you didn't. Why not? a) you actively wanted to produce bad code. b) you couldn't have. c) other? > the Lord save us from those who have an excuse for everything. Lord save us from people who think self-flagellation is at all useful or beneficial to anything. It's status-signalling and nothing else, you're in hypothetically the same situation as someone else (having…

[deleted]

Re: I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

#183

Post by mannykannot »

jodrellblank wrote: post #181
mannykannot wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you know you could have done better? Because it was an error ! I could have done better by doing the thing that fixed the error! I am not a religious person, but the Lord save us from those who have an excuse for everything.

So answer the rest of my questions - you could have, you didn't. Why not? a) you actively wanted to produce bad code. b) you couldn't have. c) other? > the Lord save us from those who have an excuse for everything. Lord save us from people who think self-flagellation is at all useful or beneficial to anything. It's status-signalling and nothing else, you're in hypothetically the same situation as someone else (having…

c) I made a mistake first time around.

In this post [1] we see you arguing that everyone makes mistakes, yet here you seem unable to recognize it as the obvious answer to your question. Perhaps not coincidentally, a failure to be semantically consistent is a common root cause of programming errors.

> So answer the rest of my questions - you could have, you didn't. Why not?

As a rule, I try to avoid responding to utter nonsense, though I must admit to breaking that rule in this thread.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22975241

Re: I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

#184

Post by hkai »

fishmaster wrote: post #155
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #137

Switch from apologizing, to thanking the person that found the issue. Profoundly different effect. One is all-about-you. The other is a team-building action, recognizing the folks who normally get a lot of grief(denial; accusations; ignoring their input). Testers respond amazingly when they're heard and treated seriously. It is so profound, let me tell you an anecdote. My test lead had gone to a conference (they have…

That definitely happened.

It probably didn't happen but i like the story anyway.

Re: I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

#185

Post by JoeAltmaier »

hkai wrote: post #184
fishmaster wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That definitely happened.

It probably didn't happen but i like the story anyway.

Yes, it did happen. One had gone from our startup, to a senior test Engineer at Microsoft. The other has gone thru Engineering test lead, to VP Engineering, to owner/operator of a Falafel joint.

Anyway it was 15 years ago. Things were different then.

Re: I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

#186

Post by jodrellblank »

mannykannot wrote: post #183
jodrellblank wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So answer the rest of my questions - you could have, you didn't. Why not? a) you actively wanted to produce bad code. b) you couldn't have. c) other? > the Lord save us from those who have an excuse for everything. Lord save us from people who think self-flagellation is at all useful or beneficial to anything. It's status-signalling and nothing else, you're in hypothetically the same situation as someone else (having…

c) I made a mistake first time around. In this post [1] we see you arguing that everyone makes mistakes, yet here you seem unable to recognize it as the obvious answer to your question. Perhaps not coincidentally, a failure to be semantically consistent is a common root cause of programming errors. > So answer the rest of my questions - you could have, you didn't. Why not? As a rule, I try to avoid responding to utte…

That doesn't get around the fundamental problem here. Why did you make a mistake if you're arguing that you could have not made one? Either you didn't want to make zero mistakes, or you couldn't have made zero mistakes.

> yet here you seem unable to recognize it as the obvious answer to your question.

I'm the one who is insistent that it was a mistake and that people make mistakes. You're the one insisting there's some loophole where you can both get it wrong and feel good that you could have got it right, at the same time. I'm saying that it's your position which is utter nonsense, a meaningless double-think designed to make you feel good, which reflects nothing about the world.

Like a kid saying “I ate ten hot dogs and threw up, but I could have eaten fifteen!” - nobody believes it, you couldn’t, you’re trying to save face and get credit for eating fifteen hotdogs without actually doing it.

Now, whether you can do better in future is a different matter - I’m not saying you can’t do things to avoid that mistake happening again, or learn from experience, or get better.

Re: I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

#187

Post by mannykannot »

jodrellblank wrote: post #186
mannykannot wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

c) I made a mistake first time around. In this post [1] we see you arguing that everyone makes mistakes, yet here you seem unable to recognize it as the obvious answer to your question. Perhaps not coincidentally, a failure to be semantically consistent is a common root cause of programming errors. > So answer the rest of my questions - you could have, you didn't. Why not? As a rule, I try to avoid responding to utte…

That doesn't get around the fundamental problem here. Why did you make a mistake if you're arguing that you could have not made one? Either you didn't want to make zero mistakes, or you couldn't have made zero mistakes. > yet here you seem unable to recognize it as the obvious answer to your question. I'm the one who is insistent that it was a mistake and that people make mistakes. You're the one insisting there's so…

> Why did you make a mistake if you're arguing that you could have not made one?

This is bizarre. Where on earth did you get the idea that I am arguing that one could have not made a mistake? The whole issue is about one's attitude and behavior after having done so.

I am not going to consider anything else you write here until you clear up that mystery, which seems to be the root of your confusion.

Re: I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

#188

Post by freediver »

i_haz_rabies wrote: post #159
freediver wrote: post #80

Bugs are the responsibility of the process that brought them there. In most cases it is shared responsibility. Why doesn't your dentist mess up 1 out of 5 interventions? They have gone through years of strict training and there are giant liabilities in place. In development? A lot of self-taught developers, who can always jump to a next gig because of never-ending demand. This sets up the scene for a totally differen…

In absolute terms there's a lot more CS degrees working dev jobs churning out bugs. Self-taught devs can be great. Degree devs can be shit. I mostly agree with the rest of your post.

May be - may be not. Would you trust your dental work to a self-taught dentist? What makes developers a special case? I am agnostic to it and genuinely curious.

Re: I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

#189

Post by cutemonster »

catmanjan wrote: post #61
adrianN wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's because a piece of software with a few hundred thousand lines of code has a state space that boggles the mind. And then that software interacts with a dozen other services of similar size. And then new features need to be added every few weeks. It's completely incomparable to wiring up a normal house. In buildings with nontrivial electrical systems, shit hits the fan really quickly too. Just look at the absol…

I see what you're saying, but I think electronics is equally or more complex than software, but over a longer time period Copper, plastic, other things which I have no authority to talk about, were all complex at one point in time You do make a good point about scope creep, I wonder if the early days of electronic had a similar problem because nobody knew what they wanted or what was possible? Very interesting to thi…

I'd think so. If you were to install one of Tesla's early first AC motors, it'd sometimes do unexpected things or stop working intermittently, I suppose

Re: I’ve made a conscious effort to stop apologizing for bugs in my code

#190

Post by cutemonster »

Nicksil wrote: post #164
erikbye wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read my reply again, note especially the part "While this happens". Obviously I am acutely aware of what you are saying, no matter how many Wikipedia articles you link, so your comment is not only superfluous but also makes no sense, as I was asking OP if he was personally affected in such a way because he seemed bitter. Your reply does not answer this, and you should let him answer for himself. > I'm not sure what y…

>5 does not fit the definition many in anyone's book. ... >I was asking OP if he was personally affected So 5 people dead is insignificant, but a single person, adversely affected, is cause for concern?

There're billions of people using software, divide 5 by that.
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