500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court • Hacker News Board

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#151

Post by kazinator » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:11 PM UTC

Heliosmaster wrote: post #144

ramblerman wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. IANAL either but to me the law/government is there to uphold contracts. Not judge if they are smart or deemed a good idea.

Not really. I can't contract you to do something illegal for me (e.g. kill somebody, even me!). Now, if you are saying that these kind of contracts SHOULD be valid, that's another thing but that's not the case at the moment (and rightly so, imo)

The validity of hit contracts should probably be upheld in the following way: the contractee must pay the amount (in addition to whatever penalties they face), but that money is seized. It could be put into a fund that helps victims' families.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#152

Post by geebee » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:12 PM UTC

ramblerman wrote: post #139

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #26

>The court also upheld the lower court's conclusion that the $517,000 wager was excessive. Quebec courts are not arguing that Rock Paper Scissors is not a game of skill. They only ruled that the bet was "excessive" which is against the law. IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. I am thoroughly impressed that the loser actually made good on their commitment thoug…

> IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. IANAL either but to me the law/government is there to uphold contracts. Not judge if they are smart or deemed a good idea.

I took a semester of contract law, though I am not a lawyer either. I believe what you write is not accurate. I vaguely remember a case about someone who sold a refrigerator for four times it’s retail value to a low income couple, collected three times the value, and then sued for the remainder. The court would not enforce further payment. However I believe it would not reverse what was already paid either.

I probably have a lot about this wrong but I recall the professor saying “if that’s he bargain, that’s the bargain!” Is not a good description of contract law.

Contracts are important and generally are upheld. However there are limits to how much of the governments time, resources, and monopoly on physical force the courts will marshal to enforce contracts.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#153

Post by geebee » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:15 PM UTC

Tsarbomb wrote: post #146

ramblerman wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. IANAL either but to me the law/government is there to uphold contracts. Not judge if they are smart or deemed a good idea.

This is such a fantastically American point of view.

I believe it is not the point of view of US based contract law.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#154

Post by valuearb » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:24 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #131

airstrike wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love playing cards, but poker is just... not as much fun because there's too much luck involved compared to, say, Rummy-type games (like my biased favorite, the Brazilian Buraco: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraco )

There are variants. The poker variants that are popular are popular exactly because there is so much more chance. The edge that skill gives is less in Texas Holdem than Omaha Hi-Lo. Which is why you see the former more than the latter.

Not really. Source: Omaha High Low (8 or better) has become surprisingly popular at my local casino, and the edge for skilled players does not seem to be any greater.

Limit poker has thinner edges than no limit, but NL has been the ocular game.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#155

Post by valuearb » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:26 PM UTC

liamcardenas wrote: post #73

npo9 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My friends would try every angle to weasel their way out of a $100 light hearted bet! I mean, the guy went to court to weasel out of the bet.

Why is no one talking about the true jerk in this situation? The guy legally forcing the other to mortgage his house in order to give him $500k — because of rock, paper, scissors...

He didn’t force the other guy to do anything. The other guy showed up at a notary public to sign the contract for chrissakes.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#156

Post by valuearb » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

apta wrote: post #124

TuringNYC wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we do not know what would happen if the situation were opposite. They both entered into the agreement, presumably seriously. It seems like just playing the game qualifies both sides as jerks.

And this is why gambling should be banned. Just because a couple of people "agree" on something, doesn't make it rational or legal.

Banning gambling doesn’t ban gambling.

It just drives it underground where knuckle-breakers get to make and enforce the rules.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#157

Post by valuearb » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #135

choward wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. To you it may be, but where do you draw the line though? Is $100,000 excessive? $10,000? $1,000? Tbh, $1,000 does actually sound excessive to me.

The definition of "excessive" is "more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate." according to a quick Google search. I would argue that the wager was for more than a necessary amount, and definitely not normal. How often do you hear about half million dollar RPS games, really?

I have multiple friends who have lost or won a quarter million in a day of gambling. In some circles this is not uncommon.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#158

Post by valuearb » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #127

apta wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the excessive argument. The argument should be to completely ban gambling, because it's been proven to be a harmful practice on society, whether practiced in excess or not.

Wagers on games of skill are not a gamble. Gambling can only be performed with games of chance.

Almost all gambling involves a strong element of skill. Horse racing, poker, blackjack, even casino games like slots have an element of skill.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#159

Post by eropple » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:32 PM UTC

ramblerman wrote: post #139

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #26

>The court also upheld the lower court's conclusion that the $517,000 wager was excessive. Quebec courts are not arguing that Rock Paper Scissors is not a game of skill. They only ruled that the bet was "excessive" which is against the law. IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. I am thoroughly impressed that the loser actually made good on their commitment thoug…

> IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. IANAL either but to me the law/government is there to uphold contracts. Not judge if they are smart or deemed a good idea.

Law and the government are there to do what benefits the society that grants them their power. Blindly upholding contracts does not benefit the society that grants them their power.

("But look at all these other things they do that suck!" - yup, I'm there with you, but the purpose of government is to be just, which is not the same thing as clueless.)

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#160

Post by AndrewKemendo » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:33 PM UTC

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #26

>The court also upheld the lower court's conclusion that the $517,000 wager was excessive. Quebec courts are not arguing that Rock Paper Scissors is not a game of skill. They only ruled that the bet was "excessive" which is against the law. IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. I am thoroughly impressed that the loser actually made good on their commitment thoug…

I fully agree that it's excessive, but I admit that I have no rational basis for that position. I wonder how they would make that claim, while also acknowledging that gambling exists.

You can lose 500k on roulette easily. That seems no less arbitrary