Time is the only real currency we have • Hacker News Board

Re: Time is the only real currency we have

#161

Post by didericis » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #143

seventytwo wrote: post #39

Parameters of the universe are currency. Time is one of them, space (or area on earth’s surface) is another, and energy is a third. How these three things are used is what generates value to human beings. Each of the fundamental items can be traded individually, but money is used as a proxy for value . The most common trade is when a person can trade their time and their body’s energy. They produce some level of valu…

that’s kind of (not as eloquently) how i came to land on the labor theory of value needing to be more prominent in economic policy. our application of energy (both physical and mental) transforms matter and collects/redirects ambient energy to productive use. that’s what generates value—gold in the ground is essentially worthless until we use labor to extract it. that it’s rare and has other interesting properties th…

Time is easily wasted, though. The labor theory of value ignores this, and ignores the value of cleverness as a result.

If I need to grind wheat for bread every day, I could spend hours a day working hard to grind it by hand, or I could spend a month or so to build a very basic water wheel/grindstone and free up all that time.

The resultant bread is still bread either way. If someone chooses to spend all their time doing the old/inefficient type of grinding, by the labor theory of value, they should be able to demand more money for the result. But why pay more money for something that took more time to make than an equivalent product made with automation? We value bread for being tasty and filling, not by how much time went into making it that way.

Some level of labor is almost always required to get raw material into a valuable state, but the amount of labor does not determine the value. Labor just regulates supply; if something takes a lot of work to make, the supply will be lower than if it were easy to make, which affects value.

Re: Time is the only real currency we have

#162

Post by kaonwarb » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

Reminds me of a quote from Brigham Young: "“Time is all the capital stock there is on the earth. … If properly used, it brings that which will add to your comfort, convenience, and satisfaction.” [1] I think of that occasionally when wasting my time in "free" distractions.

[1] (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1954], 214).

Re: Time is the only real currency we have

#163

Post by neilwilson » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

didericis wrote: post #161

clairity wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that’s kind of (not as eloquently) how i came to land on the labor theory of value needing to be more prominent in economic policy. our application of energy (both physical and mental) transforms matter and collects/redirects ambient energy to productive use. that’s what generates value—gold in the ground is essentially worthless until we use labor to extract it. that it’s rare and has other interesting properties th…

Time is easily wasted, though. The labor theory of value ignores this, and ignores the value of cleverness as a result. If I need to grind wheat for bread every day, I could spend hours a day working hard to grind it by hand, or I could spend a month or so to build a very basic water wheel/grindstone and free up all that time. The resultant bread is still bread either way. If someone chooses to spend all their time d…

That’s the paradox of productivity. You create a machine to make bread and all that happens is that bread gets cheaper in time terms once you strip away the money abstraction.

You can see this by comparing production relative to something that can’t be automated away but is still valued over time - like a violin player.

The machine forces people in the same business down to your level, but people in a less automated arena go up in value relative to your bread.

Re: Time is the only real currency we have

#164

Post by lisper » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

cmckn wrote: post #159

lisper wrote: post #133

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but strongly disagree with the title, and the advice to learn to type fast. The title is abuse (or misunderstanding) of the word "currency". Currency is an accounting mechanism. Time is, well, something else. It's an incredibly valuable commodity, a necessary (but not sufficient) ingredient for any activity and hence any kind of progress, and one which you cannot make more…

The typing advice seems out of place in the post, but I would encourage everyone to learn touch typing purely for the enjoyment of it. I find it really satisfying. I also think there are ergonomic benefits that outweigh any increased efficiency. Like the author concludes, though, nothing is "absolutely wrong" and to each their own :)

There is nothing wrong with pursing touch typing (or any other skill for that matter) for its own sake, and all else being equal typing fast is better than typing slow. My point is just that all else is not equal. The benefit of typing fast in terms of time savings is linear at best but there are ancillary effects to typing slow that can accrue non-linear benefits.

Re: Time is the only real currency we have

#165

Post by downerending » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

mark_l_watson wrote: post #90

Interesting premise and article. I do disagree with a lot of it since I believe more in maximizing human potential through mindfulness and tuning ourselves instead of our tools. re: “ You don’t want to be the person who thinks their problem through on a piece of paper,...” For difficult problems I think you do want to be this kind of person. Walking away from your laptop, sitting outside or anywhere relaxing with a p…

> You don’t want to be the person who thinks their problem through on a piece of paper, has all the ‘structure ready in the head’ but gets bored halfway through implementing it since it’s a lot to type out and it’s taking a lot of time.

Wow. I hope there aren't many people that think this way, as it sounds like a great recipe for crappy software.

Thinking things through is definitely a super power. And "typing really fast" is usually an anti-pattern.

Re: Time is the only real currency we have

#166

Post by adamsbriscoe » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #138

seventytwo wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I’m not. I’m talking about energy quite literally. The chemical energy in food is converted into work output. Of course there are more efficient ways to harness energy, but not to power a human body. We use those more efficient method where we can, hence automation and machinery and tools. This is all reflected in the abstraction layer of money.

You are. You said > The most common trade is when a person can trade their time and their body’s energy. They are not "trading their body's energy". They a performing a task which requires innumerable inputs, among them energy, vitamins, oxygen, correct ambient temperatures, training, tools, etc. Energy has a preferred fundamental status in physics but it does not have such a status in this economic transaction. Ther…

> You are bringing it up because of the aura attached to it in in physics.

I didn't get that out of the original comment, and wouldn't presume to apply intent. I think most learned professionals here understand what is meant when they hear or say (for example) "that task took a lot of energy" or "I spent a lot of energy doing xyz..." without having to spell it out in academic terms.

Re: Time is the only real currency we have

#167

Post by iso1210 » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #11

I’ve often wondered what society would look like if optimized for saving people time. Just some quick thoughts: - Crosswalks and traffic lights would become non-existent and replaced with more pedestrian overpasses, turning/merging lanes, and other designs. Waiting for the light to change is a huge waste of time for both pedestrians and drivers. It seems like we might get this eventually with self-driving cars. - Min…

Removal of adverts

Re: Time is the only real currency we have

#168

Post by Aperocky » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

The only real currency should be energy.

Joules. MJs for sake of unit sanity.

Energies are cheap where they're produced, but you have to spend extra MJs to send them to where you need it.

Having a few thousands MJs in Pluto bank will make you rich there. But it requires millions of Earth MJ to send energy to Pluto. The exchange rate of course fluctuates with space infrastructure and flattens out when better technology of sending and storing energy becomes available.

Re: Time is the only real currency we have

#169

Post by anticensor » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #32

keiferski wrote: post #11

I’ve often wondered what society would look like if optimized for saving people time. Just some quick thoughts: - Crosswalks and traffic lights would become non-existent and replaced with more pedestrian overpasses, turning/merging lanes, and other designs. Waiting for the light to change is a huge waste of time for both pedestrians and drivers. It seems like we might get this eventually with self-driving cars. - Min…

Interesting thought. The GDP would be replaced by GDTS, gross domestic time saved and the country with the highest GDTS would have the most flourishing economy. An ounce of gold would be worthless.

GDP is an input measure by definition. The corresponding output measure is GNC (Gross National Consumption), so is GDTS/GNTS.

Re: Time is the only real currency we have

#170

Post by kazagistar » Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

kator wrote: post #42

seventytwo wrote: post #39

Parameters of the universe are currency. Time is one of them, space (or area on earth’s surface) is another, and energy is a third. How these three things are used is what generates value to human beings. Each of the fundamental items can be traded individually, but money is used as a proxy for value . The most common trade is when a person can trade their time and their body’s energy. They produce some level of valu…

The only currency you're born with is time. The rest are acquired by the application of time.

People are born with significant variance in other "currencies".