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500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

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Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some players consistently make it to the final rounds in RPS tournaments [0]. [0]: https://priceonomics.com/the-world-of-competitive-rock-paper...

Oh wow that's news to me, I had no idea there was a world competition for this ! Guess i'll have to edit my other comment now :-/ edit: wait something looks odd at http://www.worldrps.com/ , is it really an internationally recognized competition ?

It's also apparently a college sport. From one of my favorite Metafilter comments:

One chilly night in the fall of 2004, I chanced to find myself upon the streets of Toronto. I represented one half of the august top-rated debate team from a small upstate NY liberal arts school ([cough] named after a man shot by Aaron Burr), recovering from a day in which we had arrived at a debate tournament and discovered, 11 minutes before the commencement of Round 1, that we would be competing using a format heretofore unknown to us. A lot of hemming and hawing ensued, before we ultimately turned to face the task awaiting us, and swaggered to the podium to stare down the fate bearing down on us like a hawk on a rabbit. The night was not kind to us, and by 11PM, we had succeeded in drowning our sorrows in a heretofore unimagined selection of Labatt's higher-gravity options available at the corner pub.

Which is when we were wholly taken aback to encounter none other than Syracuse University's internationally ranked (!!) team of rock-paper-scissors players, fresh off their top-32 finish in that year's invitation-only (!!!) tournament. I admit I was skeptical as to the provenance of their accolades, but a quick glance at the large medallions hanging off two team members' necks was enough to assuage any doubts; these were our fellow Upstate New Yorkers, and they had come to win RoShamBo rounds and chew bubblegum, and they were all out of bubblegum.

Naturally, we did what any self-respecting half-in-the-bag Americans would do upon meeting so-called champions of the rock-paper-scissors arena on the streets of a foreign nation, and challenged them to a duel on the spot. We proceeded to go a spectacular 0-24 against our fellow countrymen, before realizing that maybe there's more to the metagame than we had previously considered. It's only now, 15 years later, upon reading this description of the algorithm, that I have come to understand the instrument of our demise.

https://www.metafilter.com/181225/Iocaine-Powder#7714208

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#42

> the game also involves a large part of chance I can't find the source right now, but I remember reading about a court case centered around whether Bridge (the card game) is gambling or not due to the influence of chance on its outcome. It was settled by holding a string of games that pitched players with varying experience against each other and the outcome was that better skilled ones _always_ prevailed. And so th…

Neither a bridge or poker player, but these games that have both a huge mathematical and psychological component to their strategy seem to be obvious games of skill. Even blackjack with much stricter (loosing) probabilities IMO is a game of skill because "good" players will lose at a slower rate than bad ones (even without card counting).

Rock-paper-scissors just seems too simple to allow for any performance improvements that don't involve luck or cheating. For a judge to highlight "speed of execution" or "the sense of observation" doesn't make sense; this sounds like bridge players using secret signals, or a roulette player trying to squeeze their bet onto the board after the wheel has slowed - skill should be related to performance within the parameters of the game, not waiting for your opponent to throw scissors and changing to rock...

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#43

>The court also upheld the lower court's conclusion that the $517,000 wager was excessive. Quebec courts are not arguing that Rock Paper Scissors is not a game of skill. They only ruled that the bet was "excessive" which is against the law. IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. I am thoroughly impressed that the loser actually made good on their commitment thoug…

> betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive

wouldn't this depend on income/assets of those involved?

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#45

> In the 2017 judgment, Superior Court Justice Chantal Chatelain found that rock paper scissors is not simply a game of luck. > the sense of observation or the putting in place of a strategic sequence The court can ask him to defeat 10 other people in that game consistently to prove that ? But then he could argue the others were also skilled ?

OK - then make these guys play 100 or 1000 games against each other and see if anything beyond the very small sample size is responsible for the difference in win. If the previous winner is superior at RPS he should show a statistical advantage over the loser.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#46

>The court also upheld the lower court's conclusion that the $517,000 wager was excessive. Quebec courts are not arguing that Rock Paper Scissors is not a game of skill. They only ruled that the bet was "excessive" which is against the law. IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. I am thoroughly impressed that the loser actually made good on their commitment thoug…

> My friends would try every angle to weasel their way out of a $100 light hearted bet!

I mean, the guy went to court to weasel out of the bet.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#47
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that cheating?

If your opponent is playing poorly, it’s unethical not to take advantage.

The argument isn't against good/poor play; it's if this is cheating. You're essentially saying it's unethical not to cheat if you can get away with it, which is obviously untrue

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some players consistently make it to the final rounds in RPS tournaments [0]. [0]: https://priceonomics.com/the-world-of-competitive-rock-paper...

Oh wow that's news to me, I had no idea there was a world competition for this ! Guess i'll have to edit my other comment now :-/ edit: wait something looks odd at http://www.worldrps.com/ , is it really an internationally recognized competition ?

>> No one has yet dominated Rock Paper Scissors like Tiger Woods dominated golf; no winner of the RPS world championship in Toronto has ever won twice. According to Fox, however,

So no one has used math to back up their claims of skill, but one anecdote says "there's totally skill involved"...

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#49
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't influence the result of a coin toss, unless you're using a manipulated coin. I'd put rock paper scissors more into the poker category, but actually there's less of a luck-component in rps, because there's no drawing of random cards. You're only playing your opponent, and unless your opponent hast figured out a way to be completely random, you can "read" them if you're good enough. But that's very hard and i…

Influencing a coin flip is certainly possible. If you can reliably flip it the same way each time it's not hard to get 5-10 heads in a row, with a little practice.

This changes the game - it's not "coin prediction" it's now "coin manipulation"

the entire accepted premise of a coin flip is fair probability; yoou've subverted the game otherwise and should probably start working at a carnival.

Re: 500K bet on rock paper scissors ruled invalid by Quebec court

#50

>The court also upheld the lower court's conclusion that the $517,000 wager was excessive. Quebec courts are not arguing that Rock Paper Scissors is not a game of skill. They only ruled that the bet was "excessive" which is against the law. IANAL, but betting half a million dollars on three hand gestures qualifies as excessive imho. I am thoroughly impressed that the loser actually made good on their commitment thoug…

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