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Increasing transparency through advertiser identity verification

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91–97 of 97 posts

Re: Increasing transparency through advertiser identity verification

#91

With verification, will Google be culpable the next time one of my users is redirected to a tech support scam from a Google ad? At least twice a year at my business users are redirected to tech support scams from Google Search ads. Its always a similar story, "I searched for Amazon and clicked the first link".

If somebody with a blue check mark on Twitter commits a crime, is Twitter responsible?

In your example, did the twitter platform enable the crime? Did the twitter user in your example pay to use the twitter platform that enabled the crime?

Is it okay that a search engine looks like malware sometimes? You'd think that Google would want to wipe its ass.

Re: Increasing transparency through advertiser identity verification

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but this puts the spotlight back on the countries which allow shady crap. Take the United Kingdom. Google says Foo Ltd. are the advertiser, who are Foo Ltd? Well the UK legally requires Foo Ltd. to register with Companies House, a government agency, and this registration legally must identify Persons with Significant Control, actual humans who make decisions for Foo Ltd. But when you look closer you discover th…

You're referring to financial shell companies used for tax evasion and are a very specific kind of shell company. Shell companies in general are pretty commonly used and pretty common in the US (I can't speak to other countries). It's very easy to setup a very basic corporation anywhere in the US and can take anywhere from a week to a month depending on the state. That corporation can get paid to run ads by another c…

The type of company you're thinking of would insist it's engaged in tax avoidance not evasion, and since the UK has a General Anti-Avoidance Rule it would furthermore claim that the tax efficiency is a result of some otherwise quite reasonable behaviour and isn't some scheme that makes no sense except for how it conveniently avoids taxation. But mostly, as you hint, it's hoping to stay under the radar so nobody asks awkward questions.

However my point applies for shady outfits advertising on Google too. It may make sense for some companies to pay money to have a third party place their advertising, perhaps as part of some value-added service that offsets the extra cost, but under a know-your-customer regime that company doesn't want to annoy Google. If you earn $10M a year re-selling Google's adverts then the chance to earn $1M putting your name on an obvious scam is a bad deal - Google's going to cut you off and there goes the $10M pa revenue.

So the first type of shell is likely to get implicated in scummy stuff that happens in future, and as I showed you'll find out it's a dead end because your government doesn't care about making businesses tell the truth about who they are. And that's not Google's fault, it's something your elected representatives might fix if they thought you knew and cared.

Re: Increasing transparency through advertiser identity verification

#93
I'd settle for more transparency around the consumers of the ad. I've heard a few folks wonder aloud if huge percentages of their paid search volume is fraudulent. Transparency on the consumer side is good, but there should be more work to prevent bot traffic from eating ad spend.

Re: Increasing transparency through advertiser identity verification

#94
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could but realistically it's unlikely to happen. Nobody would ever accept taking responsibility for dozens, hundreds, or thousands of partners, and the expenses involved in validating every last one of them. Not to mention the lost business on either side. Even the IRS or banks can't keep up with long ownership chains or properly identifying customers and they have a more vested interest. Laws and rules are far sl…

How hard is a policy stating maximum of n-levels depth of nested ownership allowed and any kind of cyclical ownership causes loss of control in both ways ?

It's hard because non-fraudulent corporations commonly have very complicated ownership structures. The global corporation owns the US subsidiary which owns the Auto subsidiary which owns Auto Parts subsidiary which owns the Northeast Region Auto Parts subsidiary which owns a subsidiary that makes transmissions which owns a subsidiary that makes warranties for transmissions etc. etc. The level of complexity necessary to confound an external investigation is not inherently less than the level of complexity that exists in legitimate real corporations.

Corporate ownership is also traded as a commodity. The US Auto Parts Northeast Region Transmissions Warranty subsidiary is required to hold assets sufficient to bond the warranties it issues, so instead of keeping a large pile of hundred dollar bills on the coffee table, it holds shares of the parent company and you now have circular ownership. If the parent company is loaded up with debt then you might find that the subsidiaries like that own the majority or entirety of the parent company -- without even necessarily realizing it.

You also have the problem that people willing to commit fraud are willing to commit fraud. Convince some credulous victim that all they have to do is put in $1000 and sign some papers and they can invest in The Next Big Thing and they've not only scammed them out of $1000, now it's the victim's name on the shell corp.

Generally speaking identifying people who don't want to be identified is hard, the methods effective to do so oppress innocent people more than anything, and it is best to look to other solutions. For example, if you discover people are publishing misinformation, show the truth to the same people who saw the misinformation.

Re: Increasing transparency through advertiser identity verification

#95
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could but realistically it's unlikely to happen. Nobody would ever accept taking responsibility for dozens, hundreds, or thousands of partners, and the expenses involved in validating every last one of them. Not to mention the lost business on either side. Even the IRS or banks can't keep up with long ownership chains or properly identifying customers and they have a more vested interest. Laws and rules are far sl…

How hard is a policy stating maximum of n-levels depth of nested ownership allowed and any kind of cyclical ownership causes loss of control in both ways ?

I'm just talking about the expectations. Writing the rule is not the difficult part. Enforcing them is because it's extra effort and expense and it leads to losing some business. Shareholders are more than happy to support a company's ethics until they stand in the way of profit.

Finding an appropriate n might be a delicate, many big (legitimate) businesses have really complicated ownership structures. Then you have to task someone with validating all of this. Whose expense is it to do the due diligence and check everything? WHo takes responsibility for failures in this regard? And finally it will mean some business is lost on both sides and it might be a lot of money.

Banks have anti money laundering policies yet still find ways to go around them all the time because they want the business. Banking secrecy wasn't there to protect privacy but to obscure shady activities. As I said, it's good to have the rule and I'm not against it but I have the feeling people have some unrealistic expectations from this. They just raise the bar a bit and filter out the "chaff" while still allowing larger interests to prevail.

Re: Increasing transparency through advertiser identity verification

#96
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How hard is a policy stating maximum of n-levels depth of nested ownership allowed and any kind of cyclical ownership causes loss of control in both ways ?

I'm just talking about the expectations. Writing the rule is not the difficult part. Enforcing them is because it's extra effort and expense and it leads to losing some business. Shareholders are more than happy to support a company's ethics until they stand in the way of profit. Finding an appropriate n might be a delicate, many big (legitimate) businesses have really complicated ownership structures. Then you have…

> Finding an appropriate n might be a delicate, many big (legitimate) businesses have really complicated ownership structures

It is something between 10 and 13, if you accept that governance structure of an organisation must match its social communication structure. It is something between 14 and 16, if you accept that governance structure of an organisation must match its business divisions. Any n>16 is prone to communication shortcutting.

Re: Increasing transparency through advertiser identity verification

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People actually cook lunch for each other all the time without making a sales pitch, this idea that nothing happens if Google isn't cutting checks is an extremely dim view of humanity.

How do you cook lunch over the Internet? Why are you hanging out on ad supported website right now?

Are you getting compensated for the content you produce here on hackernews?
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