About 10 years ago I met the head of IT for B&H cameras in NYC. Among many things, he was in charge of the hosting for their online store. After he complained about dealing with physical servers, I asked him if he had ever considered using AWS ec2 for the website, and he replied that his boss refused because he believed that Amazon would pull data on B&H products and use it to compete more effectively. I'm not sure t…
Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products
301–310 of 727 posts
Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products
#302Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It taught me a valuable lesson not to build my entire business on someone else's platform. This sounds eerily similar to what happened to a close friend of mine, and that's 100% the right takeaway from the situation. > My wife runs a small business on Etsy and it's just as bad. They make random code changes, which bumps listings up or down and you suddenly have no orders for weeks at a time. Same as above, differen…
>> I'm in favor of strong individual privacy laws I support such laws too, but I wouldn't expect them to really change this. I think what we're seeing is more of a monopoly problem than anything else, even if violating privacy is a part of how they pull it off. It's very hard to prove that a company that does, in theory, have access to data is not storing it or looking at it. Even accidentally. I just finished explai…
Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products
#304About 10 years ago I met the head of IT for B&H cameras in NYC. Among many things, he was in charge of the hosting for their online store. After he complained about dealing with physical servers, I asked him if he had ever considered using AWS ec2 for the website, and he replied that his boss refused because he believed that Amazon would pull data on B&H products and use it to compete more effectively. I'm not sure t…
Sounds like this head of IT isn't very good at his job if he can't explain the difference between EC2 access, databases, and web requests over TLS There are ways that you can use AWS that Amazon would have no way to access any of your data even if they wanted to.
You may trust them not to abuse hypervisor access, but they still have network “meta” data - it could tell them how many transactions clear against credit processors (though not the actual amounts if encrypted), a good idea general distribution of page views With respect to time and user ip (though not the exact pages), times of day, demographics of users (Geo locations and ISPs, for example)
If you don’t trust them not to peek at what they can, don’t use them. He is perfectly right.
There are other cloud providers who aren’t competing with B&H and would be a better choice. But amazon is a direct competitor to B&H, even if they do have an IT barrier - they cross subsidize; any $ paid to Amazon helps it against B&H.
Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products
#305every major retailer has store brands, and I fully expect they all use their sales data to inform their generic products business, and all of their suppliers expect that too. As a consumer, I like that Amazon is upfront about what products come from their brand. Good luck browsing through the plumbing and electrical fixtures at Home Depot or Lowes and figuring out what crappy store brand stuff and whats not.
(2) HD and Lowes have almost no generic/store brand stuff at all. There are a few exceptions, and they likely do represent fairly profitable sections of their overall business. The main ones I am aware of: lighting, ceiling fans, toilets/sinks, flooring. That leaves huge sections of these stores without generics.
Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the free market has overly concentrated power in a party, the solution is to create competition by dividing that party.
Isn't that exactly what MichaelApproved said?
> "The solution is to create regulations & laws that prevent this behavior."
I'll take a slightly contrived and simplified set of examples to illustrate why a lot of free-market advocates don't agree with this sentiment as being correct.
1. We identify this "market failing" behavior of Amazon. I.e. Amazon does it a few times and after a while, public starts to
2. Legislators make it illegal for a platform to sell the same products as their suppliers. Easy, right?
3. Amazon alters products to not be technically "the same" so they skirt regulation. E.g. Renames "Plain Artisan Soap" to "Amazon Artisanal Soap", never mind that the product they "copied" was called "Joe's Plain Artisan Soap", and Amazon's product is advertised as "cheap alternative to expensive artisan soaps".
4. We notice and we complain.
6. Amazon complains back (maybe even a few court-cases along the way?), says certain products aren't the same. E.g. Supplier sells artisan soap, but Amazon argue their white-label "soap" isn't the same, it's just soap.
7. So to be fair, legislators start coming up with a reasonable system to identify similar products, which forces amazon to identify "similar" products in order to get them off.
8. Legislators followup and create reasonable rules and exclusions how Amazon can market their branded soap, or how closely the soap can resemble an existing product.
9. Amazon happens to also have a bunch of their own genuine products that it manufactures cheaply. Perhaps a byproduct of some sort of warehouse process they have, and they use their idle machines to make it, or something. But new suppliers come on that happen to sell something that according to regulations is "similar" to those products, and Amazon gets into hot water.
10. Amazon has to put rules, processes, maybe software algorithms to identify such a case. Remember, at Amazon scale, they have thousands of new suppliers and orders of magnitude more "products" that get added each day.
11. Regulators realize it's too difficult to figure this problem out and go to court over it. So they come up with a complaints + arbitration system to address it fairly with a "human in the loop". Think DMCA, takedown requests, etc.
12. Above regulations require paperwork, and you have to register as a platform if you get requests, you're obligated to address complaints of "similar products", etc.
Amazon implements all these rules at each stage, neverminding the "good-faith" interpretation of the original and subsequent laws put in place each time. I.e. "We just don't want platforms abusing their power to undercut genuine businesses." But at this stage we've, through genuine and honest market "interventions" and reasonable rules that seem straightforward and simple and cheap to implement, created regulatory costs that by default get applied to every new "platform" that competes in a space similar to Amazon. You've now successfully put in place regulations that inhibit and prevent competitors manifesting to compete with the existing monopoly or oligopoly.
Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products
#307I saw this happening a decade ago, but I had no real proof. I had a profitable Amazon store in 2010. I found niche products that Amazon didn't sell. As soon as I started getting traction on any one product, Amazon would start undercutting me, and my sales would drop to almost zero over the course of a couple of weeks. I had near 100% feedback and I had a single customer complaint that I sold them the wrong product. W…
1st I got an item from a fraudulent 3rd party shipper. Did not get my money back and amazon claimed they don't know his identity
2nd Packet got stolen. Amazon claimed based on statistical analysis this packet is assumed to have reached me. Delivered to "mailbox". Paid with CC, made a charge back, closed my account.
You know what is a pretty good competitor? eBay. As a business it may be terrible, but as a market place it is quite good.
Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products
#308This is not only obvious, it's Amazon's explicit strategy to have their own products listed alongside 3rd party products. It's been that way ever since they made the then-controversial decision to launch a 3rd party marketplace business in 1999 to compete vs eBay.
Amazon had its own "auctions" site in the late 1990s which many people forget even existed (it's one of the few things that Amazon tried and failed at). Bezos knew that eBay was a problem as soon as they emerged, and worried that Amazon would never compete effectively against them. In many senses, he was right.
How do I know this? I worked with Bezos in the legendary "garage" in Bellevue, WA.
Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
We sell an ERP catered to distributors and many do sell on Amazon. I’ve always wondered why on earth they would continue to sell on a platform that’s constantly gathering their selling data, or even inventory if they’re going FBA, and eventually try to undercut them if their products sell well. Their response is usually “I’m making enough money now, why worry about later?” or “our product category is too niche for Am…
When your customers say that their product is too niche, they're probably right in a lot of cases. The argument that Amazon can enter every niche and cater to every consumer want is essentially saying that planned economies can actually function. But they can't. Amazon is skimming the highest volume product categories and that's it. They couldn't manage the complexity of branching out into every single long tail prod…
It gets into things where not much is needed.
For example, USB cables, laptop sleeves, kettle bells, dumbell, weight plates, led light and this kind of category is simply too big and it will put whoever ever discovered a new niche which doesn't require anything more than the physical product get outcompeted by Amazon.
Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is absolutely no veil between the hypervisor and the guest virtual machines. Not in the EBS either. If they say they won't read your data, better trust them. If you don't, stay away from their datacenters. EDIT: fix typo.
> The is absolutely no veil between the hypervisor and the guest virtual machines. Not in the EBS either. This is 100% true. To do any useful computation on your data (read, what you're using all AWS for) they have to have 100% visibility into your data. > If they say they won't read your data, better trust them. If you don't, stay away from their datacenters. That's it, right there. All of this is based on Trust in…