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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#581

Post by gnrlbzik »

When I moved to Canada in 98 from Belarus, I had minimal language knowledge. I was also half way through school year. After my testing was done I was put in to next grade.

Even though I was not the best student in my home country, prolly mediocre at best. With some subjects being better than others, still it was surprising to me.

By next school year I also felt that science classes were way behind what I was used to, and even though I could only read and barely understood instructions, I still was able to do very well in all of my stem classes despite lack of language knowledge. Honestly it was kind of annoying that I had to do things that I already have done in previous grades.

As I have started getting better with English and started paying less attention in class and less to my homework, eventually I fell somewhat behind.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#582

Post by Koshkin »

V-2 wrote: post #449
new2628 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It even went further: in Romania, there was a popular movie in the 80s where the main plot is a high school student going to the math olympiad and his classmates cheering for him (with additional romantic threads of course).

Obviously all culture, and certainly mass culture in the Soviet bloc was controlled for "proper social message". I don't suppose Romania was more lax in respect to that? A movie cheering for, or even trivializing anti-social behaviors would find it difficult to go past censorship (not to mention - to be conceived in the first place...) It's for the same reason that you'd be hard-pressed to find a pre-1989 Central/Eas…

In the West the mass culture is also controlled in some way (for political correctness).

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#583

Post by p1esk »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #479
p1esk wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure where the above commenter gets their information from or if they're being entirely honest You left Russia when you were 10, so you were basically a child. Then you "heard from family" something you've never actually experienced. On the other hand, I was there in Soviet Union/Russia going through all 10 grades in three different schools, and then getting my masters in engineering, while tutoring…

I think we are just saying that you had an uncommon experience. Were you in a small town by any chance? Also, going back to the parent's post: "it seems like Russia as a whole has very quickly lost the few positives the Soviet Union brought" Right, kind of tragic.

Were you in a small town by any chance

Average town (0.5M), average family (engineers), average school (not the best, not the worst), though the high school I attended had math specialization, so by the end of it I knew more math than an average Russian (or an average American).

it seems like Russia as a whole has very quickly lost the few positives the Soviet Union brought

Now imagine North Korea collapses, becomes like South Korea 30 years later, and someone makes a statement like that about it. Puts it in a different light, doesn't it?

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#584

Post by jjtheblunt »

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

I suspect there's a huge variation within the US; Chicago area public schools do what you described in Russia, or did anyway.

When relocating years later to California for work, locals seemed to have had access to far fewer opportunities in school. Besides math, as in the OP's observations, foreign language options seemed to only include Spanish, whereas Chicagoland had French, German, Spanish, Latin, and that included some ancient Greek.

Just different opportunities, by school district.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#585

Post by TheTrotters »

sndean wrote: post #56
peter_d_sherman wrote: post #30

Excerpt: "At the risk of oversimplifying, I noticed that because of the traditional scarcity of equipment, Russian students and scientists had to think rather than experiment, whether with computers or accelerators; it was often all that was available to them."

> traditional scarcity of equipment This sort of thing likely led to what one of my Russian professors was pretty proud of: That Soviet microbiologists with some bacteria, a pH meter, and some basic chemicals like sodium citrate could bang out publications, with some well-designed and elegant experiments. We Americans, on the other hand, would spend thousands of dollars on fancy machines, reagents, etc. and were less…

“Guided by the beauty of our weapons”, I guess.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#586

Post by bsanr2 »

akarma wrote: post #550
V-2 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on my experience (Poland) bullying typically targets social ineptitude and sycophantism towards teachers, which tends to be somewhat correlated with good performance at school. But I've never really seen anyone being persecuted for good grades as such. I wouldn't assume that's the case in American schools, though - not based on movies, at least. Could be just a convenient stereotype peddled by "college comedies…

> But I've never really seen anyone being persecuted for good grades as such. As someone who went through the US public education system in a lower-class neighborhood in the 2000s, I can't speak for wealthier neighborhoods [1], but people are definitely persecuted solely for their grades. [1] One of the most interesting things about American culture is the dichotomy we have due to the large population and inequality…

I don't know if it's a class thing so much as an aspiration thing. In my diverse community, which could be broadly characterized as "middle -class/upper middle class black, lower-middle class/middle class white," it was the people who put on airs who had the biggest problems with me getting higher marks than them. There was also a transition; when I was younger, I got the most guff from the ghetto-fabulous black kids and got along relatively well with the white kids. Starting in middle school and intensifying in high school, the black kids seemed to chill and the hostility and ostracization from the white kids grew. I attribute this to the changing social dynamics: while the black kids who weren't getting the best-of-the-best scores had already been tracked into standard classes and could read the writing on the wall in terms of how academia was going to treat them going forward, the mediocre, insecure, and would-be upwardly-mobile white kids were becoming aware of the precariousness of their situation. They'd been boosted beyond their natural ability by savvy parents and a system set up to do so. An aloof black kid waltzing into class and getting by with little effort was threatening. God forbid he learn to study.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#587

Post by Koshkin »

varjag wrote: post #391
missosoup wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

Oh not this again. The USSR coasted its first half of existence milking Tsarist legacy of science and engineering, then the other half copying the intellectual fruits of supposedly dumb Western jocks. Modern Russia isn't even half of that. Precious little to show for all the cheek puffing and talent grooming.

> milking Tsarist legacy

I call it "preserving tradition."

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#588

Post by screye »

novok wrote: post #139
lsh123 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not very familiar with these schools, I am in CA. I think the biggest factor for me during my high school years was several hours per week of 1-1 discussions with currently active mathematicians and grad students. While formal math is really hard to read, a lot of ideas are very elegant and actually simple. It’s hard to find these ideas in a formal math text, but you can explain a lot of things in 1-1 setting wh…

This is what infuriates me about college level mathematics from about 12 years ago at least. Why can't they also explain it like they do in those 1-1 sessions instead of making calculus textbooks that assume you know set theory before set theory is taught in some of the worst most obtuse writing there is. I'm glad there is khan academy now, but come on.

You would love 3B1B.

He teaches undergrad level math with his youtube videos in the most intuitive way I've ever seen on video.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#589

Post by Koshkin »

Tycho wrote: post #567
missosoup wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

Anti-intellectualism isn’t the same thing as anti-nerdism. People respect originality and innovation, but who really is going to respect those who shut themselves away to cram their heads with facts, to please their teachers and get good grades, when they could be out having fun and mixing with their peers. And for what? A higher salary band? Four star hotels during summer vacation rather than three star?

The image of a Mad Scientist and the notion of the egghead are still all too dear to American soul.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#590

Post by lordgrenville »

Symbiote wrote: post #407
agent008t wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, British universities focus less on technical skills/knowledge, but more on research skills. Initiative is encouraged. You come out knowing more useful things, with experience in independent work/research, and with more confidence in yourself. A Russian university would absolutely hammer you with technical knowledge (including in many irrelevant subjects), but when it comes to actually doing an independ…

> British universities bizarrely seem to often reward/celebrate athletics more than academic achievements. I'm not sure how you get that impression. American universities do this, but (with a couple of famous exceptions, like the traditional boat race between Oxford and Cambridge) British universities don't care about sport. The social hierarchy was just separate, and had no bearing on anything academic. I didn't car…

Possibly relevant quote from Stephen Hawking, Brief Answers to the Big Questions (talking about the early '60s):

"The prevailing attitude at Oxford at that time was very anti-work. You were supposed to be brilliant without effort, or to accept your limitations and get a fourth-class degree. I took this as an invitation to do very little. I’m not proud of this, I’m just describing my attitude at the time, shared by most of my fellow students."

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