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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#461

Post by coldtea »

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

>I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible

I don't think so, compared to the difference between the US and my country (which is western but closer to USSR/Russia regarding math curriculum). I think you overestimate what the average US high school student learns...

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#462

Post by nervousvarun »

paganel wrote: post #307
missosoup wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

> One of the major factors is this weird anti-intellectualism culture that just doesn't exist in Russia. It was the same thing in Romania, at least in the '90s, when I went to school/high-school. It was always strange to me seeing all those American movies of the "nerds"/geeks getting persecuted by the "cool" kids, it certainly didn't happen to kids in my school and I'm pretty sure it generally didn't happen to kids…

It's not that way anymore. That's even "propagated" to movies (see the scene in 21 Jump Street where they go back to high school and unsuccessfully try to persecute smart kids).

But as an American someone in their mid-40s...can anecdotally say it was definitely true in the 80s-90s.

It's a senseless/strange phenomenon that definitely existed but seems to have naturally died off. Guessing it's related to the increasing amount of tech-billionaires during this time. In general in American society, people with money are considered "cool".

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#463

Post by MisterTea »

Shivetya wrote: post #447
MisterTea wrote: post #420

I have a feeling that TV/media really did play a huge role in the decline of intellectualism in the western world. The USA loves its TV, hollywood and celebrities. It's been reinforced throughout the culture and it makes a lot of people very very wealthy. The more time you spend watching tv the more money they make. Though here's the crux for them, educated people think more and do more so they don't make good custom…

Politics played a bigger role. Simply put they had to aim for lowest common denominator when setting standards else claims of discrimination would pile on. Many school systems went so far as to either modify grading systems to prevent embarrassment or celebration of achievement. Schools types which attempt to provide a more specialized learn curriculum are regularly demonized for one reason or another. If you want th…

Schooling has indeed been dumbed down but that as happened in the more recent decades. TV/media manipulation has been at work slowly getting our intellectual capacity for decades, since WW2. I even will go as far as to say it was a direct result of WW2. Cant have kids growing up to be commies. Best have little Susie and Joey sit and watch wholesome american tv reinforcing traditional american values of imperialism, idealism, consumerism and obedience to authority.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#464

Post by superfx »

nervousvarun wrote: post #462
paganel wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the major factors is this weird anti-intellectualism culture that just doesn't exist in Russia. It was the same thing in Romania, at least in the '90s, when I went to school/high-school. It was always strange to me seeing all those American movies of the "nerds"/geeks getting persecuted by the "cool" kids, it certainly didn't happen to kids in my school and I'm pretty sure it generally didn't happen to kids…

It's not that way anymore. That's even "propagated" to movies (see the scene in 21 Jump Street where they go back to high school and unsuccessfully try to persecute smart kids). But as an American someone in their mid-40s...can anecdotally say it was definitely true in the 80s-90s. It's a senseless/strange phenomenon that definitely existed but seems to have naturally died off. Guessing it's related to the increasing…

Would you mind linking to the 21 Jump Street scene? I'm very curious. As an American nerd in my late 30s, I definitely recall being relentlessly teased as a kid. I don't have kids of my own now and so I don't really know how and if things have changed, but if true this would be a very positive development!

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#465

Post by de_watcher »

emteycz wrote: post #388
de_watcher wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're in such a school you can really feel what's up, especially in Soviet/post-Soviet case: the socioeconomical situation is exactly the same (because communism), and you usually know the families of other pupils. Then you see the ones who try hard but still can't get it, you also see the lazy smarts.

I am a kid from a post-communist state. What I saw was that abused children had it very rough even though they were very bright, and the lazy smarts generally had perfect conditions at home with loving parents ready to help at any time - and I don't mean with homework itself. You wouldn't believe what sense of not being loved and stress does to a child. > the socioeconomical situation is exactly the same (because com…

The "social capital" was based on the proximity to the ruling minority. The power was greatly centralized so there weren't many of those type of families. Majority had all same: same stuff like photocopied all over the place.

About the beatings: it's more about the Russian culture, it's even kinda normal for the husband-wife relationships in some regions. To the West there was less of it.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#466

Post by Skye »

gambiting wrote: post #313
missosoup wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

Not the same, but I went from the Polish education system to a British university, and it also felt like it was a massive downgrade. What really surprised me was the core principle at British unversities - "don't assume prior knowledge of anything". It basically meant that on a CS course, they teach you basic level maths, basic programming skills, you spend the entire 1st year of university learning what we learnt in…

Well in the UK the subjects you select is very closely tied to which University you can go to. Some universities require maths and will not accept people who haven't done it (sometimes even more advanced maths is required).

Some universities don't require maths and so will teach it to everyone who's applied. Some don't require it but force you to take a year of it if you haven't done it. and others require it and reject you if you haven't done it.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#467

Post by literallycancer »

ozim wrote: post #417
_0ffh wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing, if you let people who do not want to waste time (and tuition fees!) on repeating basic stuff skip ahead.

If those people who do not waste time are so smart why they have to be hold by the hand and given curriculum? (tuition fees you can count as means for getting a diploma, but also if someone is soo smart, why does he need a diploma anyway?) What I imagine really smart person would do is: go to people giving the course for additional work or talk with them to show where they are at. Skip classes, read something else wh…

In principle, yeah. Read something else in class -- better to just skip it then. It is not uncommon for people to skip lectures and just do the exam.

>If those people who do not waste time are so smart why they have to be hold by the hand and given curriculum?

There's a culture of "rules apply to everyone" and people are not used to asking for special treatment. So if you don't make it super obvious, people will assume they can't ask for adjustments. Also, no tuition so weaker incentive to get your money's worth.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#468

Post by rcxdude »

gambiting wrote: post #458
GuB-42 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What really surprised me was the core principle at British unversities - "don't assume prior knowledge of anything"... I think it is a good thing. There is a big difference between doing well on a test and understanding the subject. You may think you know basic algebra because you can find the correct value for x, but chances are that you don't really know what you are doing. So having a refresher course telling yo…

Yeah, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, just that I was really surprised by it. In the entirety of my Polish education it was drilled into our heads that we had to be super good at algebra for example, because "no one at university will wait for you to learn, you have to know it before you start" - and then I went to a British uni, and well, people did wait for us to catch up, which lead to me having a very relax…

UK universities generally have a low attrition rate (at least to failing exams). If you struggle with the subject you may wind up dropping out on your own due to stress, but if you stick with it you'll probably still technically get a degree, just a third or an 'ordinary' (which is basically a fail: I don't know many employers which will count it as a degree).

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#469

Post by agent008t »

g-erson wrote: post #457
agent008t wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At Oxford, for instance, social life mostly happens at colleges. The way things are set up, you simply do not get to spend that much time with your course-mates - you do not interact with them during lectures, and then everyone goes back to their colleges. And social life in colleges is (sadly) dominated by drinking at the college bar, drinking in clubs, and dinners in the dining hall, where everyone seems to sit acc…

I do think it's worth adding, though, that from what I've heard (and given my own experiences), the culture in Oxford/Cambridge is not at all representative of University culture generally in British Universities.

True, yet they are some of the best universities not only in Britain, but in Europe and the world. So they are highly relevant in this discussion as we are talking about the top maths/physics education in each country for top students. E.g. when Russian universities/schools are mentioned here, it is usually Moscow State University or another top university or school that is assumed.

And in many ways, e.g. when it comes to drinking and partying, I would guess the culture in other British universities is even worse. In a top Russian university you simply would not have the time, and they would not hesitate to kick you out; graduating from university can be more difficult than getting into one.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#470

Post by [deleted] »

spullara wrote: post #318
missosoup wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

Big Bang Theory is one of my most hated shows of all time.

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