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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#421

Post by ken47 »

govg wrote: post #415
ken47 wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"its more difficult to get into IIT than Harvard" By what metric? I doubt that everyone who got into IIT could get into Harvard. But I may be a bit biased because I work with some IIT graduates who are a bit underwhelming relative to the reputation of their alma mater.

It's a hard comparison since Harvard and the IITs have different admission processes. Admissions to the IITs happen via a single exam, which is held at the end of 12 years of school education and is conducted over a few hours consisting of upper level physics, chemistry and mathematics. Harvard meanwhile has a lot more in terms of admission criteria, with essays, SAT scores and other things taken into consideration.…

I agree - that could be the closest to a sound argument, but it's a very superficial one. Someone who claims to be highly intelligent by virtue of their alma mater should know better than to advance such an argument to an educated audience.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#422

Post by govg »

alimw wrote: post #354
econcon wrote: post #338

Well I went to IIT and our education system is more like Soviet Style education, heck we used the same books for competition prep. I aced every class always stood first in my class till class 10th and after that my performance dropped till I realized that "I am not supposed to care about understanding a concept in its entirety and solve problem based on only things I've learned however limiting it was". It was first…

I'm not sure this is specific to any particular school of mathematical education. There is bound to come a point at which you cannot understand everything and have to start winging it. If you can cope with that, that's good, you are prepared psychologically for research mathematics. And just having learned the patterns will hold you in good stead. But if (as I did) you find the whole thing an insult to your pride the…

India (and a few other places) face this issue to a larger extent, I feel. When the judgement of your education comes via one single competitive exam, you tend to maximize that reward. In the Indian education system (and to similar extent afaik in china, south Korea and Japan), having nationwide tests that are the only factor for university admissions in math and science forces everyone competing to solve for performance in the exam. And it is far easier to do this by learning how to solve problems than by learning the material then using that knowledge to solve problems.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#423

Post by cyphar »

missosoup wrote: post #268
lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

My family is from Serbia (my parents were both mathematics teachers in Serbia) and I was raised here in Australia. It's definitely true that the curriculum is many years behind even relatively poor and corrupt countries (like Serbia). As a toy example, my parents taught me how to solve simultaneous equations in year 4 (when they'd have taught it in Serbia) while everyone else had to wait until year 9 to learn it in school.

I had friends who came to Australia after starting their education in Singapore, and they were continually shocked how far behind we were. It's honestly gob-smacking how little is being done about this, we're doing a massive disservice to our young people which they will have to overcome for the rest of their lives.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#424

Post by govg »

saagarjha wrote: post #196
gandalfgeek wrote: post #77

It's not just math. Physics too. People from India who went through engineering entrance exams like JEE will have fond (or horrific) memories of "Problems in General Physics" by Irodov ( https://archive.org/details/IrodovProblemsInGeneralPhysics/m... ). Every problem in there was something to wrestle with.

Irodov is also a great resource when preparing for the USA Physics Olympiad. (Other, slightly easier but still good ones are Morin's books.)

The International Physics Olympiad and the IITJEE have a high correlation in terms of material required as well as people who do well, it is probably the Olympiad with the highest correlation between Olympiad performance and performance in the JEE.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#425

Post by mbeex »

lower wrote: post #411
c-smile wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and actually Soviet/Russian education system has it roots in classic German one where Spießrutenlaufen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_the_gauntlet ) was a great educational tool (see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birching#/media/File:Koerperst... ).

Spießrutenlaufen was used by the military and was a severe, often fatal punishment. It was certainly not a great educational tool.

I think, he is confusing the figurative meaning with the real punishment. The former is not un-common in Germany even today. And yes, it has - or had - some relation to a certain concept of pedagogy. Cruel, but at times also positively personality-forming.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#426

Post by [deleted] »

dirtnugget wrote: post #327

I had an exchange year during High School where I moved from Germany to Florida for a year and attended a public school. I hate to say this but to me the classes were laughably easy. While I was a 10th grader in Germany I could have easily graduated there. I do however favour the US system of individual classes where you could advance in e.g. Mathematics but if you had trouble with language you could take a less-inte…

[deleted]

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#427

Post by netcan »

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

In the early 90s, I lived in a US apartment complex and went to schools with a lot of recent Russian migrants.

Three times a week all the Russian kids were rounded up for "Russian Math," taught by, Arkady... my friend Mike's Dad. They followed the Russian/Soviet curriculum, which was 2-3 years ahead of the school's.

I think we focus a lot of educational systems, because these are matters of policy which can be critiqued and maybe changed. But, I think culture plays a big role.

My mother has PHD in physics, so its not like I'm from an anti-math culture. But, the Russian take was a different level. Being mathematical was very important to them, and they made it happen.

A good example for this is language learning. In some schools/places/countries/communities, language learning is culturally important and culturally supported. In those places schooling works, and kids graduate with strong language abilities. In other places, it isn't, and kids generally don't progress regardless of what classes they are in.

Europe is like a lab for this. Most Dutch kids graduate with native-level english, and often a 3rd and 4th language. In Italy, kids have almost no english. Modern young-people Dutch borrows a lot of English. They watch English TV. English is part of the culture, so the schooling works.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#428

Post by agent008t »

Symbiote wrote: post #407
agent008t wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, British universities focus less on technical skills/knowledge, but more on research skills. Initiative is encouraged. You come out knowing more useful things, with experience in independent work/research, and with more confidence in yourself. A Russian university would absolutely hammer you with technical knowledge (including in many irrelevant subjects), but when it comes to actually doing an independ…

> British universities bizarrely seem to often reward/celebrate athletics more than academic achievements. I'm not sure how you get that impression. American universities do this, but (with a couple of famous exceptions, like the traditional boat race between Oxford and Cambridge) British universities don't care about sport. The social hierarchy was just separate, and had no bearing on anything academic. I didn't car…

At Oxford, for instance, social life mostly happens at colleges. The way things are set up, you simply do not get to spend that much time with your course-mates - you do not interact with them during lectures, and then everyone goes back to their colleges.

And social life in colleges is (sadly) dominated by drinking at the college bar, drinking in clubs, and dinners in the dining hall, where everyone seems to sit according to some unofficial hierarchy (with being in the top sports team in a popular sport seemingly correlated with being near the top of that hierarchy). Inter-college and Oxford vs Cambridge competitions in all kinds of sports (but primarily rowing) are a massive part of college life. The university rewards athletes with awards of blues and half-blues, drawings on college walls celebrating sports victories, prominent mentions in college publications etc. Academics, on the other hand, are not given nearly as much attention - you would almost never know how good someone is doing in their studies, especially since they are probably studying a completely different subject to you.

It would be common to go and support your college sports team in, say, rowing; whereas nobody really cared so much about academic competition between colleges. Those academic victories were never really mentioned or celebrated.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#429

Post by Avamander »

salty_biscuits wrote: post #375
Dahoon wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is just an excuse. You could easily take an "intro to programming" before trying to get into the school. All it does is lower the bar of entry and you can only teach so much in the time given so it will ultimately take time away in the other end.

What's wrong with a low bar to tertiary education? It lets disadvantaged kids get in and catch up. As long as the standards are high by the end everything is fine right?

In my experience, it's like being sabotaged. If one has a previous interest in the subject but is forced to complete all the same courses it gets very very tedious. Akin to being forced to fill middle school worksheets - you can do it, but it takes time and is just mind-numbing.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#430

Post by govg »

oarabbus_ wrote: post #252

How do Soviet high school math/physics texts compare to those of China, and India?

I can't speak for China, but in India there has not been a historically large amount of attention paid to writing textbooks in mathematics and physics. During high school, the students who seek challenging problems often fall back to Russian text books, especially in physics. More recently there has been a push by some Indian authors, so you will find some challenging texts by Indian authors, but still nowhere close to say Krotov or Irodov for physics.
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