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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#411

Post by lower »

c-smile wrote: post #150
Bayart wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>University on the West gets its money directly from students so they motivated to attract and keep as many students as possible - so books are entry level to do not scare students. Barrier here is established from "paying user" side. I guess Western Europe isn't part of the West anymore.

Yes, and actually Soviet/Russian education system has it roots in classic German one where Spießrutenlaufen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_the_gauntlet ) was a great educational tool (see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birching#/media/File:Koerperst... ).

Spießrutenlaufen was used by the military and was a severe, often fatal punishment. It was certainly not a great educational tool.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#412

Post by champagneben »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #331
paganel wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the major factors is this weird anti-intellectualism culture that just doesn't exist in Russia. It was the same thing in Romania, at least in the '90s, when I went to school/high-school. It was always strange to me seeing all those American movies of the "nerds"/geeks getting persecuted by the "cool" kids, it certainly didn't happen to kids in my school and I'm pretty sure it generally didn't happen to kids…

> It was always strange to me seeing all those American movies of the "nerds"/geeks getting persecuted by the "cool" kids, it certainly didn't happen to kids in my school and I'm pretty sure it generally didn't happen to kids generally around the country. In the United State there is an extreme anti-intellectual bias among conservative middle and lower class whites.

Intellectualism and being a "nerd" is appreciated in black Democratic strongholds?

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#413

Post by dgb23 »

dan-robertson wrote: post #400
michaelt wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory? Nothing at all. In practice, some see the fact many tech employers give coding tests to people with CS degrees as a sign the standards at the end aren't as consistently high as one might hope.

This is a stupid argument. Is one to suppose that the brain teasers that were popular in interviews 15 years ago implied that universities weren’t teaching people to be clever or something? I think a lot of interviewing style is fashion driven. Also computer science isn’t necessarily about actually coding anyway. It’s mostly about algorithms and structure and complexity. Similarly, anyone who knows anything about uni…

The difference is that programming is an essential craft. Algorithms are fundamental here, but it seems like teaching „structure and complexity“ equals to teaching paradigms that where en vogue a generation ago. This kind of knowledge is distracting, pretentious and even harmful.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#414

Post by iateanapple »

red_admiral wrote: post #291
TimTheTinker wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that’s what I meant (and I for intersectionality). Agreed that CRT/I would oppose standardized tests, but that’s only because CRT/I at its core opposes anything objective. And the philosophy of CRT/I has already made significant inroads in American culture. Witness all the accelerated programs that have been shut down, the many recent attacks on objective standards—all in the name of “equity” (which does not mea…

The thing is, if you accept the basic "liberal arts" idea of education that it's about creating a common culture, then a lot of the ideas coming from the social justice side of things actually make some sense. From the "liberal" point of view, one of the purposes of English lit class and education in general is to create a common background that people in professional settings can use in conversation - I can use my f…

> Would a stock of common background knowledge (for want of a better word) be that much less effective if it included slightly less Hemingway and Twain and slightly more contributions from more diverse authors?

In practice it hasn’t worked out that way.

Instead it has:

1) Created a cultural barrier between the average Joe and the “liberal elite”.

It turns out that Twain etc are approachable to the average high school diploma American in a way the replacements texts are not.

2) Created a clear divide between minorities who study at elite US universities and the rest of us.

For example there is a level of alienation between Chinese tech workers who went to college in the US vs other Chinese tech workers here.

3) Created a group of “liberal elite” who think they can speak on behalf of, and even lead, other cultural groups when what they have learned isn’t representative of those cultures at all.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#415

Post by govg »

ken47 wrote: post #398
tarun_anand wrote: post #334

This is a question close to my heart. I was a huge fan of Russian Math and Science books and I used them to study for an entrance exam to IIT (its more difficult to get into IIT than Harvard) and came out in top 100 in the country. But, inspite of coming out at the top of the exam, I found Russian maths books very interesting and sometimes very difficult to master. This coming from a country full of brilliant mathema…

"its more difficult to get into IIT than Harvard" By what metric? I doubt that everyone who got into IIT could get into Harvard. But I may be a bit biased because I work with some IIT graduates who are a bit underwhelming relative to the reputation of their alma mater.

It's a hard comparison since Harvard and the IITs have different admission processes. Admissions to the IITs happen via a single exam, which is held at the end of 12 years of school education and is conducted over a few hours consisting of upper level physics, chemistry and mathematics. Harvard meanwhile has a lot more in terms of admission criteria, with essays, SAT scores and other things taken into consideration.

The easiest way to justify OPs stance is to compare the admitted / applied ratio for both schools, owing to the sheer number of people taking the IITJEE and the relatively low number of seats available (around 10k), the success ratio is lower than Harvard.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#416

Post by krcz »

b0rsuk wrote: post #404
missosoup wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

US has American Football, jocks, and cheerleaders. This is something notably absent elsewhere. When you watch a hollywood high school move, this strange obsession jumps at you. In Poland the word "nerd" is difficult to translate. It has no direct equivalent.

While there is no direct equivalent, kujon seem to be pretty similar. (For non-Polish people, kujon is a derogative term for someone having good grades, coming with a stereotype that such person spends all their time learning, not doing any fun stuff)

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#417

Post by ozim »

_0ffh wrote: post #384
salty_biscuits wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with a low bar to tertiary education? It lets disadvantaged kids get in and catch up. As long as the standards are high by the end everything is fine right?

Nothing, if you let people who do not want to waste time (and tuition fees!) on repeating basic stuff skip ahead.

If those people who do not waste time are so smart why they have to be hold by the hand and given curriculum? (tuition fees you can count as means for getting a diploma, but also if someone is soo smart, why does he need a diploma anyway?)

What I imagine really smart person would do is: go to people giving the course for additional work or talk with them to show where they are at. Skip classes, read something else while in a class. Take advantage of knowledge to not care about the course curriculum and do his own research.

But that is my idea and maybe people who think their time is wasted could be a bit more humble and learn to work with other people.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#418

Post by iorrus »

Bayart wrote: post #115
c-smile wrote: post #67

I was comparing my math books (from Soviet university, Physics and Applied Math) and my son's from Canadian university (CS). Huge difference to be honest. Canadian ones (same as in US I think) were more like belletristic texts written with the goal to give basics without too much thought needed by the reader. In contrast you cannot approach Soviet text math book without serious thinking effort. You need to overcome s…

>University on the West gets its money directly from students so they motivated to attract and keep as many students as possible - so books are entry level to do not scare students. Barrier here is established from "paying user" side. I guess Western Europe isn't part of the West anymore.

I'm in Western Europe. University courses get funding based on how many students are in the class. It links directly so "bums on seats" = €€. This money comes from the state but it has the same effect.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#419

Post by collyw »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #181
knzhou wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are now , not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high perfo…

Ironic that Russia is pushing for excellence while the States is pushing for equality.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#420

Post by MisterTea »

I have a feeling that TV/media really did play a huge role in the decline of intellectualism in the western world. The USA loves its TV, hollywood and celebrities. It's been reinforced throughout the culture and it makes a lot of people very very wealthy. The more time you spend watching tv the more money they make. Though here's the crux for them, educated people think more and do more so they don't make good customers. So fill the TV with anti intellectualism. Then toss it the political usefulness of a mindless medium and you have a dangerous conduit so to speak.

A friend grew up in a household where his mother forbade TV and video games. During this covid-19 lockdown, instead of mindlessly watching TV like everyone else appears to be doing, he built a deck and is rebuilding his garage among other projects. Every other friend I talk to is sitting around drunk, high or watching TV. Few do some projects but it's mostly TV show chatter in the chat apps.

Personally I don't hate TV and I have netflix. Though I only really watch it in spates and when it is on, I am on my laptop or doodling in my notebooks. It's more for background noise than content. Though of course there are some times when I'm tired and just want to sit and watch an episode of a show.

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