Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#311

Post by woodpanel » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:39 AM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #268

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

In my family some – during their high school years – managed to move from Eastern Germany (GDR) to Western Germany (FRG): They unanimously state the same thing as you did.

My speculation: This hasn't anything to do with the "eastern-ness" of a countries culture – but rather the ROI for education / medicine, which looks quite different under a communist economy, under which so many other endeavours scale so much worse.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#312

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:44 AM UTC

rdiddly wrote: post #39

I mean, could it be as simple as "Learning math is more important to Russians than to Americans?" And before you dismiss this as simplistic, consider everything that's competing for attention with "learning math." What things are Americans either preoccupied with or beset with, that Russians esp. Soviet Russians, weren't? I'm thinking, the profit motive. Particularly as concerns textbook publishers. And parents who n…

[deleted]

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#313

Post by gambiting » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:45 AM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #268

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

Not the same, but I went from the Polish education system to a British university, and it also felt like it was a massive downgrade.

What really surprised me was the core principle at British unversities - "don't assume prior knowledge of anything". It basically meant that on a CS course, they teach you basic level maths, basic programming skills, you spend the entire 1st year of university learning what we learnt in school around age 15-16. A Polish university absolutely won't be teaching you basic algebra,statistics or core concepts of programing on a CS course - you are simply required to know these things, otherwise wtf are you doing on a CS course.

Also in general, I find the elective system of subjects in British schools to be.....poor. As in, I was(and am) surrounded by perfectly normal adults who are good in certain subjects(the ones they picked) and who have zero knowledge in others(the ones they didn't pick). I feel like my own Polish education has given me a very broad understanding of a lot of different subjects even if I wasn't personally interested in them. Like, even though I went to a school with a "maths and CS focus"(which just meant these two subjects had 2x the number of lessons each week), we still had lessons in history, physics, chemistry, biology, Polish literature.....all of it was mandatory, you couldn't just decide to skip it. At the time, I thought it was useless, but in hindsight I am very grateful for it because it has given me at least basic level of knowledge in many different subjects, whereas my British peers just can't even have a conversation about basic chemistry for instance, since they never took it as a subject.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#314

Post by hidden_agent » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:45 AM UTC

mikorym wrote: post #303

missosoup wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

There were other kinds of "anti" things in the USSR, like antisemitism. I think the whole of the Eastern block had a tendency to be better at mathematics since you only need your own mind and maybe a textbook and a mentor. South Africa was heading towards a very strong mathematics school and then this same kind of phenomenon whereby you discount mathematics starting happening. Edit: I mean that in the Eastern block y…

The antisemitism comment was a reply to this:

> this weird anti-intellectualism culture that just doesn't exist in Russia

Anti-intellectualism does exist in Russia. Read for example Edward Frenkel's autobiographical works.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#315

Post by red_admiral » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:46 AM UTC

DmitryOlshansky wrote: post #298

alanh wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one taught me this in school, but if you add up the digits (5+7=12) and the result is divisible by 3, then so is the original number. It works recursively.

Yes, a simple consequence of e.g. 3-digit number being: 100x + 10y + z modulo 3 Removing 9y and 99x gives equivalence: x + y + z modulo 3 Now what’s left is induction with proper base (1-digit).

As dan-robertson mentioned in another branch, you don't even need induction - you can sidestep it by writing X = sum_i x_i 10^i and noticing that all the 10^i are 1 modulo 9 (and therefore modulo 3).

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#316

Post by mseidl » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:46 AM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #268

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

Anecdotally, a I know some people that grew up in Europe and then went to America/American schools and they did way better there because it was way easier. I also remember something on 60 minutes a long time ago where they had some some Dutch students take some advanced American test and the lowest score in a test not their native language the lowest score was like 92 I think...

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#317

Post by collyw » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:47 AM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #268

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

Does Russia have celebrity culture a la Kardashians or stuff like that? (I assume they have some, how does it compare?)

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#318

Post by spullara » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:47 AM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #268

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

Big Bang Theory is one of my most hated shows of all time.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#319

Post by qaq » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:47 AM UTC

It's not just textbooks. The whole approach was different. You would be regularly called upon in class to do a problem on the blackboard. You would be graded on the spot publicly. There was no participation trophy type stuff. Teacher could easily make fun of you for not knowing something etc.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#320

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 8:49 AM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #268

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

Can agree with similar comparison - when studying at the end of 90s on high school, one student from our central/eastern european class spent 1 year in US. After he came back, he'd tell us how in math they were several years behind for same age group (ie we were running derivations and integrals and they were more on end-of-secondary school level). He was average back home, stellar math student there.

Of course, case point 1, comparing 'gymnasium' (more theoretical study-focused high school instead of say practical crafts, good preparation for university) with some US public high school.

Schools back home have gone 'softer' on students since we studied (don't all complain at some point about that?), so maybe now its more comparable.

The thing is, hardcore math skills apparently don't have that high impact on overall functioning economy. More open society, freedom to pursue ones dreams, freedom to try your own business idea (and fail hard if stars don't align) make overall a better functioning economy.