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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#281

Post by aivisol »

sershe wrote: post #125
Endlessly wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, what do you and your peers that were feed into a well defined path so early make of it now understanding that is not how all children reach advanced skills in mathematics?

In iirc 8th grade, I've placed high in the final round of a Moscow-wide physics competition, incidentally hosted by MSU. My classmate, who placed even higher, and myself have received an invitation to enroll in the MSU-affiliated maths/physics focused school (#2, the schools in Moscow are all numbered semi arbitrarily). As far as I recall, every time I'd go to one of those competitions bulk of the people in later rou…

Yep, can confirm, such system existed in other large Soviet cites as well. I also graduated from one such maths and physics oriented school. Compared to regular public schools the education level was much higher, and not only in those subjects. The studying there was extremely intense, 6-day week (which was standard in USSR at that time), long hours, and tons of homework to keep you busy late at nights and weekends (read: Sunday). Best graduates were expected to go further study in MSU or other top universities. The rest of us who went to local universities found themselves bored in the first years of their studies.

Now, living in a western European country I found in a hard way that the key to a better education for your talented kid hides in your bank account.

Don't get me wrong, I in no way support Soviet system, but this was one of the things they did good.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#282

Post by topaztee »

missosoup wrote: post #268
lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

tall poppy syndrome - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#283

Post by dmurray »

Arnt wrote: post #260
alanh wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one taught me this in school, but if you add up the digits (5+7=12) and the result is divisible by 3, then so is the original number. It works recursively.

My maths teacher made me prove that, my first proof by induction. Try it. You know you want to procrastinate with a nice proof by induction now.

Induction seems like an odd way to prove this. Do you need to preform induction over all the numbers that are not multiples of three?

The converse claim (every multiple of 3 has a digit sum that is a multiple of 3) is a more natural one for induction, though that's not the most standard proof there either.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#284

Post by vladislav »

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

"I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible." That's difficult to believe. I went to comparable level early education schools in Russia and the US and observed stark differences in the quality of math education. Math culture is a thing, and it varies between countries, affecting the education system on the whole as well.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#285

Post by cskinner »

missosoup wrote: post #268
lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

In Australia, a few of the top private schools as well as government schools in demographic areas with a high Chinese student population do have an intellectual culture.

A few of my family members are teachers (in both private and government schools) and from what I hear there is not yet much of a shift away from the anti-intellectual culture.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#286

Post by guerrilla »

c-smile wrote: post #150
Bayart wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>University on the West gets its money directly from students so they motivated to attract and keep as many students as possible - so books are entry level to do not scare students. Barrier here is established from "paying user" side. I guess Western Europe isn't part of the West anymore.

Yes, and actually Soviet/Russian education system has it roots in classic German one where Spießrutenlaufen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_the_gauntlet ) was a great educational tool (see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birching#/media/File:Koerperst... ).

Combined with the parent comment, I think that makes it a perverse incentive here, depending on who is setting yhe standards.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#287

Post by guerrilla »

google234123 wrote: post #42
tathougies wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, Rudin, the most popular abstract algebra textbook in English, is quite dense.

"abstract algebra", are you sure you aren't talking about analysis? It's not usually used as an introduction anyway.

Rudin's Principles of Mathematical Analysis is the top analysis book in the US too.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#288

Post by a-saleh »

rvense wrote: post #271
Bayart wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>University on the West gets its money directly from students so they motivated to attract and keep as many students as possible - so books are entry level to do not scare students. Barrier here is established from "paying user" side. I guess Western Europe isn't part of the West anymore.

In Denmark, universities (and possibly high schools too, I don't know for sure) get paid by the government based on the number of students passing exams every semester. I think this is part of what's called "new public management" where you attempt to bring market-like incentives to the public sector.

Interesting, universities in Czech republic went through a simmilar scheme, but they'd get disproportionately more funds per head-count of first-year students (on-boarding, I guess?)

Several universities switched from entrance exams to a system of "Everybody gets in, it is the first semester that will probably kill you" :-)

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#289

Post by rq1 »

mbeex wrote: post #276
agumonkey wrote: post #12

I can only assume but culture makes things very different. I often said that French abstract algebra books stopped me from learning for 10 years (after many serious attempts). One book from Garreth Williams unlocked 80% of my issues. The shocking part was the approach. It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it's all theorems and concepts. Learning curve to make a Haskell…

Bourbaki school of thought. Read Dieudonné - not a single( I think to remember) illustration. Kindergarten starts math education with set theory. This was the imaginated ideal.

> Kindergarten starts math education with set theory.

Well what’s wrong with that?

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#290

Post by vladislav »

missosoup wrote: post #268
lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

> I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible I went to high school in Russia and then moved to Australia. The difference was immense. It felt like i just dropped 2 year levels. Even the accelerated programs were hopelessly behind the regular curriculum for my age group in Russia. AU/US high school students can't possibly compete against RU or CN high school studen…

Pretty much my experience as well moving from Russia to the US. Team sports and social deviance seem to dominate the popularity hierarchies of American schools (as of 2003). In Russia being the top student is respected instead.
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