Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#211

Post by PeterStuer » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 6:00 AM UTC

We had a very famous MIT professor on a 6 month sabbatical at our lab in the early 90's. He remarked on the difference between US and our institution in Belgium being that here you can just assume undergrad students would be fluent in basic math subjects, whereas in the US (in this case MIT) you would have to explain even very basic math.

Now 3 decades later we are also at a US level as math has in general been completely de-emphasized at all levels of education.

As for textbooks, at the time EU ones were pretty clean, mostly definitions, axioms, proofs and conjectures, plots etc, layed out in simple black on white, whereas US textbooks were extremely wordy, full of colour and irrelevant photos blasting away at your senses.

Sadly this seems to be the style that commercially won, but I doubt very much it is beneficial to the student.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#212

Post by tapatio » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 6:00 AM UTC

In Soviet Russia, you teach textbook.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#213

Post by winter_blue » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 6:01 AM UTC

c-smile wrote: post #117

eigenvector wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canadian universities you typically have 3 to 5 levels of mathematics courses for students specializing in something other than math. The highest level of rigour would only be found in the courses for mathematicians, with physics, engineering and computer science students studying many of the same concepts but less rigorously and with comparatively little attention to deriving results from first principles. Was th…

First 3 years all students of all Sciences (Math included) and all Engineering specialties were getting the same (mandatory) set of courses. Only rest 2 or 3 years were variable. As of Canadian Universities. UBC in particular. Anecdotical evidence, but still. Friend of mine, owner of small factory here in Vancouver, asked me once to assemble him software department specifically from Eastern Europe people. On question…

> asked me once to assemble him software department specifically from Eastern Europe people

I hope your friend realizes that this is clear-cut racial/ethnicity-based discrimination.

It's a violation of the Canadian Human Rights Act, see: https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/rights-w...

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#214

Post by sinkasapa » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 6:02 AM UTC

TimTheTinker wrote: post #205

nostromo wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just happened in Seattle. The program for gifted students was canceled after being found to be inequitable.

Wow. By that argument, one could just as easily label top universities with high scholastic admissions requirements to be “inequitable”, and thus unacceptable. Equal opportunity does not imply equal outcome—even for a perfectly fair school. Quite the opposite! In fact, I’m glad I got rejected from several schools... their high bar helped guide me to something that worked better for me anyway.

I think people do say that. The notion is that when you look at the people attending Harvard and Mit, for instance, their parents tend to be much more wealthy than the students at Bunker Hill Community College. You're right! That isn't an excuse to shut them down but it might be a reason to think of the system a inequitable. It may be that similar parallels exist in K-12. Then if you're middle class or poor, you have to wonder, "Why am I paying taxes for an elite school that my kid likely won't attend? Can't the rich kids' parents pay for the elite school themselves?" That may be short term thinking or kind of defeatist but it is reasonable.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#215

Post by raarts » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 6:02 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #192

WillPostForFood wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high perfo…

This just happened in Seattle. The program for gifted students was canceled after being found to be inequitable.

Apparently NY is doing the same: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/27/nyregion/gifted-programs-...

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#216

Post by konart » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 6:08 AM UTC

Koshkin wrote: post #156

It may be just that Russian style of teaching is more conservative and preserved the way teaching was done in the 1800s.

> teaching was done in the 1800s.

Teaching whom? Peasants?

Soviet system was build as an attempt to provide schooling for every one, what kind of schooling of 1800 you are even talking about?

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#217

Post by burtness » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 6:08 AM UTC

TimTheTinker wrote: post #199

WillPostForFood wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high perfo…

It’s not just California. The combination of “no child left behind” legislation, combined with modern political movements (CRT/I in particular), has rendered large swaths of American public education devoted to bringing everyone up to a minimum standard (not necessarily a bad thing in itself, mind you), but all the while sacrificing the potential of gifted students by not placing everyone into separate (and significa…

By CRT are you referring to Critical Race Theory? I'm sceptical that its both that influential, or that any good faith reading of CRT supports sacrificing accelerated programs. In particular CRT in education if anything pushes against reliance on standardized testing scores.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#218

Post by de_watcher » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 6:08 AM UTC

Endlessly wrote: post #107

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

Curious, what do you and your peers that were feed into a well defined path so early make of it now understanding that is not how all children reach advanced skills in mathematics?

Most of the children don't want, don't care or just plain stupid to be able to grasp the subjects.

It makes sense to isolate together those who can. The special schools don't do anything special, they just cut down the distractions, shift 0.5-2 university years into the school and spice things up with some competitive math/physics/programming/chemistry/biology/geography/etc.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#219

Post by visarga » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 6:12 AM UTC

madhadron wrote: post #183

smohare wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps the “hardcore” texts are just poorly written?

Having worked from translations and occasionally originals of some of the Russian texts, they're actually utterly marvelous.

Same situation in Romania, some of the best math problem books I found were a bunch of books printed before 1980's. The problems were just wonderful. I was desperately searching for them for my kids through my father's library.

In 1990's after the revolution we got humanitarian aid from Western Europe, including some French math textbooks. They were so low level (simple) I was in disbelief. Useless.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#220

Post by rimliu » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 6:14 AM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #69

The real question should be is why are US textbooks so hard when most people never need HS math after finishing school, and lack so many other skills that are never taught.

Unless you count thinking as an important skill.

It alway baffles me when I see "why don't they teach how to do taxes?". Well they do teach you how to read and hiw to do maths? How hard it is the to put 2 and 2 together?