Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#191

Post by saagarjha » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:27 AM UTC

geomark wrote: post #32

Here is an interesting paper [1](PDF) by a Russian mathematician who has taught mathematics in Russia, USA and Brazil. He compares the "very successful usage of word problems in Russia and contradictory, inefficient and often immature treatment of word problems in USA." [1] http://toomandre.com/travel/sweden05/WP-SWEDEN-NEW.pdf

I've noticed that a lot of students seem to have issues with "word problems"–as in, they have difficulty translating the problem into its mathematical form–and it's often treated as an entirely separate class of problem that you can be bad at. I guess that there's a lack of early training (it doesn't even have to be that much) to do this conversion?

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#192

Post by nostromo » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:27 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #181

knzhou wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are now , not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high perfo…

This just happened in Seattle. The program for gifted students was canceled after being found to be inequitable.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#193

Post by arduanika » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:28 AM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #184

sershe wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In iirc 8th grade, I've placed high in the final round of a Moscow-wide physics competition, incidentally hosted by MSU. My classmate, who placed even higher, and myself have received an invitation to enroll in the MSU-affiliated maths/physics focused school (#2, the schools in Moscow are all numbered semi arbitrarily). As far as I recall, every time I'd go to one of those competitions bulk of the people in later rou…

Well, 2 is prime, and so is 57, so it makes sense those would be math focused schools. ;) [0] —- [0]: https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/6358/story-of-grothe...

> And indeed 57 looks a bit prime for some psychological reason

It tricked me, until I read the link.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#194

Post by saagarjha » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:28 AM UTC

p1esk wrote: post #164

aeonsky wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess its just anecdotes at this point, not data. But all my peers and friends from different schools, were solving quadratic equations in 4th grade in USSR/Russia. This was early 90's. I then studied in Canadian and US high schools and it took me until 9th grade to start learning any new math again at school.

In Soviet Union, quadratic equations were introduced in 7th grade, not 4th [1], so if you did in fact study them in 4th grade your experience is not typical. And while American 7th grade program does not cover quadratic equations, it includes intro to probability and statistics, which is far more useful in real world, and which was not covered in Soviet math classes until much later (if at all). [1] http://fremus.nar…

> And while American 7th grade program does not cover quadratic equations, it includes intro to probability and statistics

Depends on your program, of course. I did quadratic equations in 7th grade, and the first class that actually did any non-trivial probability was in 10th grade.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#195

Post by LatteLazy » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:30 AM UTC

I don't know about the Soviets, but American books always seem to take longer to say less than other countries texts. I think it's a volume thing: Americans see 400 pages and think it must be twice the product of a 200 page alternative...

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#196

Post by saagarjha » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:30 AM UTC

gandalfgeek wrote: post #77

It's not just math. Physics too. People from India who went through engineering entrance exams like JEE will have fond (or horrific) memories of "Problems in General Physics" by Irodov ( https://archive.org/details/IrodovProblemsInGeneralPhysics/m... ). Every problem in there was something to wrestle with.

Irodov is also a great resource when preparing for the USA Physics Olympiad. (Other, slightly easier but still good ones are Morin's books.)

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#197

Post by zozbot234 » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:32 AM UTC

p1esk wrote: post #164

aeonsky wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess its just anecdotes at this point, not data. But all my peers and friends from different schools, were solving quadratic equations in 4th grade in USSR/Russia. This was early 90's. I then studied in Canadian and US high schools and it took me until 9th grade to start learning any new math again at school.

In Soviet Union, quadratic equations were introduced in 7th grade, not 4th [1], so if you did in fact study them in 4th grade your experience is not typical. And while American 7th grade program does not cover quadratic equations, it includes intro to probability and statistics, which is far more useful in real world, and which was not covered in Soviet math classes until much later (if at all). [1] http://fremus.nar…

But how can they teach probability and stats without any calculus or real analysis? Are they just teaching a few cookbook formulas and leaving it at that?

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#198

Post by saagarjha » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:33 AM UTC

mygo wrote: post #180

Is following along and learning / practicing math directly from a textbook still the most effective way to learn math? Now that we have devices in our pockets and on our desktops with more and more capabilities that have educational use cases such as interactivity and AR, how would a calculus lesson be made in 2020? Could we just go down the street, aim our devices at cars passing by, or cars speeding up from a stop…

I think that's a great way to get an intuitive understanding of the concepts, as an introduction to the subject, but at some point you really do have to sit down with numbers and equations and learn the theory behind it all and apply it to examples that aren't constrained by the reality you can physically experience in a classroom.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#199

Post by TimTheTinker » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:36 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #181

knzhou wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are now , not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high perfo…

It’s not just California. The combination of “no child left behind” legislation, combined with modern political movements (CRT/I in particular), has rendered large swaths of American public education devoted to bringing everyone up to a minimum standard (not necessarily a bad thing in itself, mind you), but all the while sacrificing the potential of gifted students by not placing everyone into separate (and significantly varying) tracks according to their varying abilities.

In addition, schools are funded based on standardized test scores, which encourages many schools, especially in poorer areas, to teach to the tests—instead of teaching students to think.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#200

Post by akhilcacharya » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:39 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #181

knzhou wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are now , not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high perfo…

I don’t see the issue. The internet exists now and you can access a world of content in seconds. I didn’t get any of this, ever in my mediocre education - I don’t see why so much focus should be placed on these elites at the expense of everyone else.